Lower body drive in IMA

Lower body drive in IMA

Joined: August 16th, 2005, 10:50 am

September 25th, 2009, 7:35 pm #1

I finally see what you guys are saying about the lower body drive.

Scott's video, "Master The Golf Swing" seemed to me to be all about how to move the arms. He never gave (in that video), AFAIK, any instruction about moving the lower body other than where it is at impact. It was all about where the head has to be during the swing, and how to move the arms.

Because I came to IMA from NG, the emphasis on arms was consistent, and fit with what I already was trying to do. NG specifically says, let the arms drive the swing and the body will move in support of the arms. Early on with NG, my lower body was way too active, so I worked hard to beat it into submission. Apparently I went too far.

The more I have tried to make my IMA swing "right", the more I realized that something was dramatically wrong or missing. It was simply too hard to properly make the pistoning arm movement in a full swing. Well, what was missing was some drive from the lower body. In his Ask Scott Q&A on scigolf.com, the question came up several times. And Scott does indeed advise to start the downswing with the lower body concurrently with the arms.

It definitely feels a lot better and hits nicer shots. Now my season is nearing the end, but I am trying to learn a new timing, sync-ing up the lower and upper moves. I'll probably just scrape it around any way I can till winter, then work on it for next year. I'm still shooting around 40 for a typical nine, so it ain't bad. That's one nice thing about using a functioning SA grip and swing plane, you don't usually get too far off line with your shots. Hopefully next year I'll add some distance and consistency of impact.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

September 26th, 2009, 1:44 am #2

Like Moe, Scott's lower body moves well in advance of the arms in the downswing. In my experience if you want to approach this differential then don't attend to your arms except in drills. Instead focus on getting your body to impact position and allow your training to take care of your arms. Even a lesser delay than Scott exhibits will feel like you left your arms behind. In any case you do not want to introduce 'timing' into IMA.

Peter
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

September 27th, 2009, 5:51 pm #3

I finally see what you guys are saying about the lower body drive.

Scott's video, "Master The Golf Swing" seemed to me to be all about how to move the arms. He never gave (in that video), AFAIK, any instruction about moving the lower body other than where it is at impact. It was all about where the head has to be during the swing, and how to move the arms.

Because I came to IMA from NG, the emphasis on arms was consistent, and fit with what I already was trying to do. NG specifically says, let the arms drive the swing and the body will move in support of the arms. Early on with NG, my lower body was way too active, so I worked hard to beat it into submission. Apparently I went too far.

The more I have tried to make my IMA swing "right", the more I realized that something was dramatically wrong or missing. It was simply too hard to properly make the pistoning arm movement in a full swing. Well, what was missing was some drive from the lower body. In his Ask Scott Q&A on scigolf.com, the question came up several times. And Scott does indeed advise to start the downswing with the lower body concurrently with the arms.

It definitely feels a lot better and hits nicer shots. Now my season is nearing the end, but I am trying to learn a new timing, sync-ing up the lower and upper moves. I'll probably just scrape it around any way I can till winter, then work on it for next year. I'm still shooting around 40 for a typical nine, so it ain't bad. That's one nice thing about using a functioning SA grip and swing plane, you don't usually get too far off line with your shots. Hopefully next year I'll add some distance and consistency of impact.
in the included three frames. The first frame is at top of BS where I drew a line from his lead hip to the ball and a circle around his lead knee. Now look at the second frame a few 100's after the start of DS (great master move!), and the third frame at 6/100's. Look how hard he is driving the lower body.



I tried to copy his swing for 10 years and failed miserably. Several months into my Bertholy training and my swing is nearly identical.
Last edited by allenws on September 27th, 2009, 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 21st, 2004, 2:32 pm

September 28th, 2009, 3:51 pm #4

...the top of Scott's head as lined up with the trees in the background (or scroll down until the top of his head is at the top of the computer screen). His head seems to drop several inches during the downswing; what does he do to compensate and not hit it fat? I try to keep my head as stable as possible during my downswing to keep from digging a hole in the ground. Any insight?

Natural Bill
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

September 28th, 2009, 4:55 pm #5

The center of the swing arc is the lead shoulder. You will notice that Scott's lead shoulder is at the same height at impact as it was at address. It is further forward at impact vs address as it should be due to the movement of the body towards the target during the downswing as it was with Moe and is with all tour pros.

Peter
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Joined: August 16th, 2005, 10:50 am

September 28th, 2009, 5:44 pm #6

in the included three frames. The first frame is at top of BS where I drew a line from his lead hip to the ball and a circle around his lead knee. Now look at the second frame a few 100's after the start of DS (great master move!), and the third frame at 6/100's. Look how hard he is driving the lower body.



I tried to copy his swing for 10 years and failed miserably. Several months into my Bertholy training and my swing is nearly identical.
The photos point out something that I wish would have been better explained by Scott. He doesn't set his nose over his trail knee at address, and you can see it's not there at important points in the swing. I consider it more like a "feeling", not a precise statement. I have actually tried to setup with my nose over my knee, and it is not conducive to making the proper swing. FWIW I try to have my trail eye over the knee at setup. Seems about right.

Most good golfers and teachers make errors like this in their explanations, though. It is easy for me to throw stones from the sidelines.
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

September 28th, 2009, 6:01 pm #7

...the top of Scott's head as lined up with the trees in the background (or scroll down until the top of his head is at the top of the computer screen). His head seems to drop several inches during the downswing; what does he do to compensate and not hit it fat? I try to keep my head as stable as possible during my downswing to keep from digging a hole in the ground. Any insight?

Natural Bill
is that he is turning his head down during the DS so that his face is pointed more towards the ground than out at the horizon. This is the cause for most of the apparent head drop. If I were to post a side view, you'd notice that Scott's forward spine tilt is fairly consistent from address to impact.

Conversely, a non-SA grip will be close to SA at impact but not at address due to the forces of the swing. You have to stand up (i.e. decrease your forward spine angle) during the DS so that you won't drive the club into the ground at impact. This must be done to account for the increased length of the arms/club while transitioning from double to single axis. The timing to do so is difficult and one of the lauded benefits of SA. The stat's I've seen indicate that most tour pro's have a 35* forward spine tilt at address and only about 20* at impact. Pro's like Furyk and Vijay are closer to 5-10* at impact!
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Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

September 28th, 2009, 6:06 pm #8

in the included three frames. The first frame is at top of BS where I drew a line from his lead hip to the ball and a circle around his lead knee. Now look at the second frame a few 100's after the start of DS (great master move!), and the third frame at 6/100's. Look how hard he is driving the lower body.



I tried to copy his swing for 10 years and failed miserably. Several months into my Bertholy training and my swing is nearly identical.
Is it a wood or an iron?

Tom
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

September 28th, 2009, 7:51 pm #9

The photos point out something that I wish would have been better explained by Scott. He doesn't set his nose over his trail knee at address, and you can see it's not there at important points in the swing. I consider it more like a "feeling", not a precise statement. I have actually tried to setup with my nose over my knee, and it is not conducive to making the proper swing. FWIW I try to have my trail eye over the knee at setup. Seems about right.

Most good golfers and teachers make errors like this in their explanations, though. It is easy for me to throw stones from the sidelines.
third sequence it looks like the nose is over the trail knee. I hold a clear straight edge on the screen, it lines up straight down to the knee.

But for what it is worth, the nose instruction is specifically about where it is AT IMPACT, and most all good swings have it there even well past impact. Bertholy would have you "reverse the head" and leaves it at that. Quite a cast here:





Name em from left to right. Bonus question - "How many majors have these guys won."

I love pics of swings older and newer that show the same fundamental positions across the ages.
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

September 28th, 2009, 8:00 pm #10

Is it a wood or an iron?

Tom
N/T
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