Launch Numbers and Heel Hit Question

Launch Numbers and Heel Hit Question

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

January 9th, 2011, 2:48 pm #1

Visited Golf Galaxy yesterday and was able to test my swing and some new technology. I hadn't done my workout yet so wasn't loose, but still was able to hit some great shots except for one thing.

I took the SSRTT radar with me as their launch monitor only shows ball speed and I wanted to get an idea on the quality of my strike. First the numbers, averaged from all the hits:

My driver: Club head speed 118, Ball speed 155 Launch 13 and spin 2900

Adams
Speedline: Club head speed 121, Ball speed 162 Launch 14 and spin 3100

I also hit the Taylormade and the Callaway, but they weren't even close.

They had a chart there which showed the ideal launch conditions for each ball speed and mine are in the ball park, perhaps a little low on the spin. Dispersion was REALLY tight and straight, with just a tad of a push, I was very pleased.

However, I wasn't happy with the smash factor. I don't know all there is about it, but basically 1.5 times your ball speed would be ideal. Mine seemed a little low. So I looked on the tape of the new drives I had hit, and noticed that impact was toward the heel, in fact not one mark on the center of the club face! It was ugly! I showed the pro this pro and he said "WOW...probably just getting used to the length." The only good thing about this was that it was consistent...all three drivers had the same impact area.

I left there wondering what kind of ball speed I would have gotten had I been able to hit the ball on the sweet spot! LOL It has been a long time since I did any impact monitoring with driver...I just hadn't give it thought, but now I was curious...was I hitting 'em all on the heel?

I decided to go old school Harvey Penick. I rigged up a hitting area in my garage with a blanket, dug out my "almost golf balls", and poured some flour in a dish. I whetted the face of my driver, and dipped a ball in the flour and teed it up. Took my normal stance and swung away with my "playing swing" - 122 mph and a nice flour mark on the heel! Again three more times, all on clearkey, all on the heel!

So, I changed my set-up so that at address I was inside the line by the appropriate amount I was missing - the toe of the driver was addressing the ball, not the sweet spot like before, and swung again....SAME THING! GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

So then, I remembered that Moe sets his club down with the heel addressing the ball, and I have seen other pros do this too, so I figured what the heck, why not....Voila! Dead center, every time.

So what gives...is this purely a mind thing? Because the ball is addressed so far toward the heel it forces me to stay inside? BTW, with irons, I address the ball with the sweet spot, and that is where the dirt is, so what gives?

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

January 9th, 2011, 4:20 pm #2

You can figure what your ball speed would have been by taking 120 MPH X 1.48 = 177 MPH ball speed.


(i believe 1.48 smash may be the max if calculated properly, but that is without looking it up, it could also be 1.46 or 1.50.)

Here is a link to a good program for driver launch variables.http://www.trajectoware.com/

________________________________________

As far as the heel thing it again relates to SPACE.


The ball with your driver is suspended up in the air on a tee. You must think of the variables that change the available space from setup until impact. Target is center of face to center of ball.

What do we know changes at impact?

Shaft bend causes more space to be available as the club is shorter at impact from grip to the middle of the club face.

Are your arms more stretched out at impact vs. address? Looks like your leading arm is almost on the same plane as the club shaft at impact.

It could also be that your upper body is farther away at impact which would make more space available, hard to tell though from here.

Hitting the ball on the heel "normally" indicates a lack of space for "your" impact. If the ball had been an inch farther away at impact in all the shots you had hit on the heel impact would not have been on the heel.

Sometimes however it is not so simple.
I have worked with some people where it did not matter how they stood to the ball, and no matter what was changed they still hit it in the same place.

Addressing on the heel makes you subconsciously pull in more so you don't miss the ball and in your case you hit the center of the club face. If that continues to work then super!

Ham



Quote
Like
Share

Joined: June 13th, 2005, 8:24 pm

January 9th, 2011, 4:55 pm #3

Visited Golf Galaxy yesterday and was able to test my swing and some new technology. I hadn't done my workout yet so wasn't loose, but still was able to hit some great shots except for one thing.

I took the SSRTT radar with me as their launch monitor only shows ball speed and I wanted to get an idea on the quality of my strike. First the numbers, averaged from all the hits:

My driver: Club head speed 118, Ball speed 155 Launch 13 and spin 2900

Adams
Speedline: Club head speed 121, Ball speed 162 Launch 14 and spin 3100

I also hit the Taylormade and the Callaway, but they weren't even close.

They had a chart there which showed the ideal launch conditions for each ball speed and mine are in the ball park, perhaps a little low on the spin. Dispersion was REALLY tight and straight, with just a tad of a push, I was very pleased.

However, I wasn't happy with the smash factor. I don't know all there is about it, but basically 1.5 times your ball speed would be ideal. Mine seemed a little low. So I looked on the tape of the new drives I had hit, and noticed that impact was toward the heel, in fact not one mark on the center of the club face! It was ugly! I showed the pro this pro and he said "WOW...probably just getting used to the length." The only good thing about this was that it was consistent...all three drivers had the same impact area.

I left there wondering what kind of ball speed I would have gotten had I been able to hit the ball on the sweet spot! LOL It has been a long time since I did any impact monitoring with driver...I just hadn't give it thought, but now I was curious...was I hitting 'em all on the heel?

I decided to go old school Harvey Penick. I rigged up a hitting area in my garage with a blanket, dug out my "almost golf balls", and poured some flour in a dish. I whetted the face of my driver, and dipped a ball in the flour and teed it up. Took my normal stance and swung away with my "playing swing" - 122 mph and a nice flour mark on the heel! Again three more times, all on clearkey, all on the heel!

So, I changed my set-up so that at address I was inside the line by the appropriate amount I was missing - the toe of the driver was addressing the ball, not the sweet spot like before, and swung again....SAME THING! GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

So then, I remembered that Moe sets his club down with the heel addressing the ball, and I have seen other pros do this too, so I figured what the heck, why not....Voila! Dead center, every time.

So what gives...is this purely a mind thing? Because the ball is addressed so far toward the heel it forces me to stay inside? BTW, with irons, I address the ball with the sweet spot, and that is where the dirt is, so what gives?

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Mac for better strikers and for those who have very good fundamentals, The issue may be a space issue as Ham says, But Looking at one of your spine angle images your hips push in toward the ball as your spine raises, rather than feeling they go farther behind you and your spine angle increases, also the so called counterfall, in which you feel like you are falling back on your heels close to or near impact keeps you centered or balance not just trying to stay centered.

I forget where I saw it but I think in you tube, under gravity golf,Danny Lee talks about this counterfall idea. bare in mind I am not a gravity golf advocate just that some of the ideas could be the last missing link for you. Found it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FTaHNE6F3k
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 9th, 2011, 6:33 pm #4

Visited Golf Galaxy yesterday and was able to test my swing and some new technology. I hadn't done my workout yet so wasn't loose, but still was able to hit some great shots except for one thing.

I took the SSRTT radar with me as their launch monitor only shows ball speed and I wanted to get an idea on the quality of my strike. First the numbers, averaged from all the hits:

My driver: Club head speed 118, Ball speed 155 Launch 13 and spin 2900

Adams
Speedline: Club head speed 121, Ball speed 162 Launch 14 and spin 3100

I also hit the Taylormade and the Callaway, but they weren't even close.

They had a chart there which showed the ideal launch conditions for each ball speed and mine are in the ball park, perhaps a little low on the spin. Dispersion was REALLY tight and straight, with just a tad of a push, I was very pleased.

However, I wasn't happy with the smash factor. I don't know all there is about it, but basically 1.5 times your ball speed would be ideal. Mine seemed a little low. So I looked on the tape of the new drives I had hit, and noticed that impact was toward the heel, in fact not one mark on the center of the club face! It was ugly! I showed the pro this pro and he said "WOW...probably just getting used to the length." The only good thing about this was that it was consistent...all three drivers had the same impact area.

I left there wondering what kind of ball speed I would have gotten had I been able to hit the ball on the sweet spot! LOL It has been a long time since I did any impact monitoring with driver...I just hadn't give it thought, but now I was curious...was I hitting 'em all on the heel?

I decided to go old school Harvey Penick. I rigged up a hitting area in my garage with a blanket, dug out my "almost golf balls", and poured some flour in a dish. I whetted the face of my driver, and dipped a ball in the flour and teed it up. Took my normal stance and swung away with my "playing swing" - 122 mph and a nice flour mark on the heel! Again three more times, all on clearkey, all on the heel!

So, I changed my set-up so that at address I was inside the line by the appropriate amount I was missing - the toe of the driver was addressing the ball, not the sweet spot like before, and swung again....SAME THING! GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

So then, I remembered that Moe sets his club down with the heel addressing the ball, and I have seen other pros do this too, so I figured what the heck, why not....Voila! Dead center, every time.

So what gives...is this purely a mind thing? Because the ball is addressed so far toward the heel it forces me to stay inside? BTW, with irons, I address the ball with the sweet spot, and that is where the dirt is, so what gives?

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
That all sounds very familiar! Of course my experience was with 'heel' shots on iron clubs...

It would be interesting if you would try Bertholy's shank cure, just setup to the ball normally and take a few swings missing the ball completely on the inside. Then hit a few and see where on the face you hit it.

Another interesting aspect to this that I have thought about and mentioned here in the past is that the sweet spot on the driver is a lot further from the hosel then the sweet spot on a typical iron club. In other words the heel hits on your driver are probably dead center on your 7 iron. There may some subconscious hand eye calibration that comes into play...

Another thing is that really good players can hit the ball on the toe to draw the ball and on the heel to fade it so maybe you should work on learning to control where on the face you hit the ball?

Regards, Herbert
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

January 9th, 2011, 7:31 pm #5

I cracked up reading that! I don't think I am near a really good player. Sorta like when someone asks me what my "normal shot shape" is - I always just have to tell them honestly - it depends, but it is hardly normal!

For now, I am going to just fool around in the garage with my almost golf balls and flour - one thing that is good is that this phenomena repeats...I mean it is the same place all the time.

It's weird because I mark my balls with a check go and when I play the marks are pretty much in the sweet spot...of course the only drives I have hit since adding speed have been at the dome and then the other day at Golf Galaxy. Sure wish I had enough light to video these swings....

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 9th, 2011, 7:46 pm #6

I thought that it might be a path to becoming closer to really good.

I first heard of pros hitting on the toe to draw it many years ago in the days of persimmon drivers! Pretty impressive that!

I cannot believe that the 49ers got Harbaugh! Yippee! They might not win a lot of games next season (assuming that there is one) but they should look like a pro team on offense for a change...

Regards, Herbert
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

January 9th, 2011, 11:52 pm #7

Visited Golf Galaxy yesterday and was able to test my swing and some new technology. I hadn't done my workout yet so wasn't loose, but still was able to hit some great shots except for one thing.

I took the SSRTT radar with me as their launch monitor only shows ball speed and I wanted to get an idea on the quality of my strike. First the numbers, averaged from all the hits:

My driver: Club head speed 118, Ball speed 155 Launch 13 and spin 2900

Adams
Speedline: Club head speed 121, Ball speed 162 Launch 14 and spin 3100

I also hit the Taylormade and the Callaway, but they weren't even close.

They had a chart there which showed the ideal launch conditions for each ball speed and mine are in the ball park, perhaps a little low on the spin. Dispersion was REALLY tight and straight, with just a tad of a push, I was very pleased.

However, I wasn't happy with the smash factor. I don't know all there is about it, but basically 1.5 times your ball speed would be ideal. Mine seemed a little low. So I looked on the tape of the new drives I had hit, and noticed that impact was toward the heel, in fact not one mark on the center of the club face! It was ugly! I showed the pro this pro and he said "WOW...probably just getting used to the length." The only good thing about this was that it was consistent...all three drivers had the same impact area.

I left there wondering what kind of ball speed I would have gotten had I been able to hit the ball on the sweet spot! LOL It has been a long time since I did any impact monitoring with driver...I just hadn't give it thought, but now I was curious...was I hitting 'em all on the heel?

I decided to go old school Harvey Penick. I rigged up a hitting area in my garage with a blanket, dug out my "almost golf balls", and poured some flour in a dish. I whetted the face of my driver, and dipped a ball in the flour and teed it up. Took my normal stance and swung away with my "playing swing" - 122 mph and a nice flour mark on the heel! Again three more times, all on clearkey, all on the heel!

So, I changed my set-up so that at address I was inside the line by the appropriate amount I was missing - the toe of the driver was addressing the ball, not the sweet spot like before, and swung again....SAME THING! GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

So then, I remembered that Moe sets his club down with the heel addressing the ball, and I have seen other pros do this too, so I figured what the heck, why not....Voila! Dead center, every time.

So what gives...is this purely a mind thing? Because the ball is addressed so far toward the heel it forces me to stay inside? BTW, with irons, I address the ball with the sweet spot, and that is where the dirt is, so what gives?

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
The lie angle of your Driver might be too upright for you (heel down, toe up too much).

Tom
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

January 10th, 2011, 12:18 pm #8

Visited Golf Galaxy yesterday and was able to test my swing and some new technology. I hadn't done my workout yet so wasn't loose, but still was able to hit some great shots except for one thing.

I took the SSRTT radar with me as their launch monitor only shows ball speed and I wanted to get an idea on the quality of my strike. First the numbers, averaged from all the hits:

My driver: Club head speed 118, Ball speed 155 Launch 13 and spin 2900

Adams
Speedline: Club head speed 121, Ball speed 162 Launch 14 and spin 3100

I also hit the Taylormade and the Callaway, but they weren't even close.

They had a chart there which showed the ideal launch conditions for each ball speed and mine are in the ball park, perhaps a little low on the spin. Dispersion was REALLY tight and straight, with just a tad of a push, I was very pleased.

However, I wasn't happy with the smash factor. I don't know all there is about it, but basically 1.5 times your ball speed would be ideal. Mine seemed a little low. So I looked on the tape of the new drives I had hit, and noticed that impact was toward the heel, in fact not one mark on the center of the club face! It was ugly! I showed the pro this pro and he said "WOW...probably just getting used to the length." The only good thing about this was that it was consistent...all three drivers had the same impact area.

I left there wondering what kind of ball speed I would have gotten had I been able to hit the ball on the sweet spot! LOL It has been a long time since I did any impact monitoring with driver...I just hadn't give it thought, but now I was curious...was I hitting 'em all on the heel?

I decided to go old school Harvey Penick. I rigged up a hitting area in my garage with a blanket, dug out my "almost golf balls", and poured some flour in a dish. I whetted the face of my driver, and dipped a ball in the flour and teed it up. Took my normal stance and swung away with my "playing swing" - 122 mph and a nice flour mark on the heel! Again three more times, all on clearkey, all on the heel!

So, I changed my set-up so that at address I was inside the line by the appropriate amount I was missing - the toe of the driver was addressing the ball, not the sweet spot like before, and swung again....SAME THING! GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

So then, I remembered that Moe sets his club down with the heel addressing the ball, and I have seen other pros do this too, so I figured what the heck, why not....Voila! Dead center, every time.

So what gives...is this purely a mind thing? Because the ball is addressed so far toward the heel it forces me to stay inside? BTW, with irons, I address the ball with the sweet spot, and that is where the dirt is, so what gives?

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
With your comments in mind hit the garage. I did what I often do with an issue like this. Start at impact. I just put myself in my ideal impact position and hit balls with 1/2 swings. Obviously this limited my turn, so only 90 mph club head speed but every one dead solid on the sweet spot.

As soon as I moved into a more normal takeaway and a regular swing, the heel hits came back. So I rested for a while, thought about space and what Dustin Johnson said having "room at the bottom" to swing through. Also, Herbert in an email awhile back had mentioned a move back with the trail hip that has the trail hip actually moving back even more than at address. I pulled some video of Dustin Johnson and was like WOW:



Everything sorta jelled it seemed - from Peter's warning about my trail leg, to Herbert's hip moving back, to Ham's space, and Pedro's counter fall....just watching that sequence over and over.

So with those thoughts and imagery in mind I head back out to the garage and try again. Now I am no Dustin Johnson, and I think if got in his position at impact it would be a 911 call - but I just tried to get there as much as I could. I held it for 10 seconds...and repeated. Then I made a few slow mo swings just trying to keep that Dustin Johnson imagery in mind.

I felt ready to give it a go, so I powdered up some balls and just made a 3/4 swing just trying to make that move, and maintain that relation ( space? ) and get my impact position to look as much like DJ as possible. The first one was dead on the screws, the second a little toward the heel, third right on. Each time I tried to "add a little more" and swing more, the impact moved more toward the heel. All out swings, it wasn't even close!

It got so that by the end of the session, I was hitting most of them much closer to the sweet spot, than previously. That's the good news, the bad news is that I can't do it without thinking about it - on clearkey the heel hits return - and my club head speed is way down 110-115ish. Now 110 on the sweet spot will probably go just as far as 120 on the heel so no big deal...but the fact that the heel hits happen virtually every time on clearkey means there is some work ahead....thankfully it is winter cause I think this is going to take some work.

A very interesting day for sure, and as soon as weather permits, I am going to video some swings of these two different actions to see how different the two moves are...thanks again for the comments.

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

January 10th, 2011, 12:33 pm #9

is more and faster feedback. Not only checking the impact mark (which is great by the way), but if you could somehow setup video in your garage so that you can quickly review the swing as soon as possible after the shot. You may have to get a 500 watt halogen light, but that can't cost much. I got one on a tripod like stand that is very effective and cost less then $30.

Love the DJ impact!!! His girlfriend is not too bad either.

Ham
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

January 10th, 2011, 2:27 pm #10

With your comments in mind hit the garage. I did what I often do with an issue like this. Start at impact. I just put myself in my ideal impact position and hit balls with 1/2 swings. Obviously this limited my turn, so only 90 mph club head speed but every one dead solid on the sweet spot.

As soon as I moved into a more normal takeaway and a regular swing, the heel hits came back. So I rested for a while, thought about space and what Dustin Johnson said having "room at the bottom" to swing through. Also, Herbert in an email awhile back had mentioned a move back with the trail hip that has the trail hip actually moving back even more than at address. I pulled some video of Dustin Johnson and was like WOW:



Everything sorta jelled it seemed - from Peter's warning about my trail leg, to Herbert's hip moving back, to Ham's space, and Pedro's counter fall....just watching that sequence over and over.

So with those thoughts and imagery in mind I head back out to the garage and try again. Now I am no Dustin Johnson, and I think if got in his position at impact it would be a 911 call - but I just tried to get there as much as I could. I held it for 10 seconds...and repeated. Then I made a few slow mo swings just trying to keep that Dustin Johnson imagery in mind.

I felt ready to give it a go, so I powdered up some balls and just made a 3/4 swing just trying to make that move, and maintain that relation ( space? ) and get my impact position to look as much like DJ as possible. The first one was dead on the screws, the second a little toward the heel, third right on. Each time I tried to "add a little more" and swing more, the impact moved more toward the heel. All out swings, it wasn't even close!

It got so that by the end of the session, I was hitting most of them much closer to the sweet spot, than previously. That's the good news, the bad news is that I can't do it without thinking about it - on clearkey the heel hits return - and my club head speed is way down 110-115ish. Now 110 on the sweet spot will probably go just as far as 120 on the heel so no big deal...but the fact that the heel hits happen virtually every time on clearkey means there is some work ahead....thankfully it is winter cause I think this is going to take some work.

A very interesting day for sure, and as soon as weather permits, I am going to video some swings of these two different actions to see how different the two moves are...thanks again for the comments.

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
My hips visibly move towards the ball and I stand up during the DS. Something I'm working on. I think that Kelvin has some good ideas here. I'd go back and read his articles about the spine engine and lumbar lodosis in particular. It really boils down arching the lower back and sticking your a$$ out during the DS. This should help keep you're hips from moving towards the ball. I particularly like his concept of the scapula dig during the DS. I try and think of getting my trail wing (scapula) and my butt closer together during the DS. This also enforces the lateral bend.
Quote
Like
Share