Importance of the Master Move

Importance of the Master Move

Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

December 14th, 2009, 5:24 pm #1

I've been doing the Bertholy programs daily now for 11 months. I've become quite good at holding the angles as I am consistently retaining 90* half-way through the DS. However, I seem to be losing much of this angle retention soon after 6/100's.

In my search for why this was happening, I discovered that I wasn't executing the master move correctly, even after all of this time with PB. This led me to understand, for the first time, the real importance of doing the master move.

It was my initial thought that the MM causes you to retain the angles. However, I discovered this wasn't exactly the case, rather that it was an active bicep curl that allowed me to retain the angles. So I basically ignored the MM.

However, we've recently talked about trail arm bend at impact. I realized that my trail arm was straightening out well in advance of impact, and I didn't understand why. I now understand the reason to be that I would start my trail shoulder rotation down to the ball right from the top of BS which left my hands well behind the ball at 6/100's. My only recourse was to straighten the trail arm in an attempt to reach the ball and make contact.



In the photo above, you can see that, even though I retained the angles well into the DS, my hands are still well behind the ball at 6/100's. By contrast, Charles Howell III hand's are directly over the ball at 6/100's. Granted this is probably a short iron, but even if the ball were forward for a long-iron, his hands would be very close to the ball at 6/100's (see red lines.)

This is the true importance of the MM. By shifting your weight BEFORE initiating the trail shoulder rotation down to the ball, it allows you to get your hands close to the ball by 6/100's so that you can drop the club on the ball with good angle retention, hands well ahead of the ball at impact.
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

December 14th, 2009, 6:24 pm #2

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Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

December 14th, 2009, 11:13 pm #3

I've been doing the Bertholy programs daily now for 11 months. I've become quite good at holding the angles as I am consistently retaining 90* half-way through the DS. However, I seem to be losing much of this angle retention soon after 6/100's.

In my search for why this was happening, I discovered that I wasn't executing the master move correctly, even after all of this time with PB. This led me to understand, for the first time, the real importance of doing the master move.

It was my initial thought that the MM causes you to retain the angles. However, I discovered this wasn't exactly the case, rather that it was an active bicep curl that allowed me to retain the angles. So I basically ignored the MM.

However, we've recently talked about trail arm bend at impact. I realized that my trail arm was straightening out well in advance of impact, and I didn't understand why. I now understand the reason to be that I would start my trail shoulder rotation down to the ball right from the top of BS which left my hands well behind the ball at 6/100's. My only recourse was to straighten the trail arm in an attempt to reach the ball and make contact.



In the photo above, you can see that, even though I retained the angles well into the DS, my hands are still well behind the ball at 6/100's. By contrast, Charles Howell III hand's are directly over the ball at 6/100's. Granted this is probably a short iron, but even if the ball were forward for a long-iron, his hands would be very close to the ball at 6/100's (see red lines.)

This is the true importance of the MM. By shifting your weight BEFORE initiating the trail shoulder rotation down to the ball, it allows you to get your hands close to the ball by 6/100's so that you can drop the club on the ball with good angle retention, hands well ahead of the ball at impact.
Allen - I think that I write with some credibility when I address the Bertholy Method because I not only used the Method for 18 years with much success but I also took lessons from Paul Bertholy. He told me that few of his students ever attained the elusive Master Move to the Master Position but that even those who don't can nevertheless develope a fine and functional Bertholy Method swing. Bertholy confirmed that I was one of the fortunate ones to achieve the Master Move & Master Position and it seems clear to me that you are correct in describing what your swing lacks in appearance vis a vis Charles Howell. However, in my opinion, the difference is not just a matter of degree of angle retention which you may think you might correct by holding your angles deeper into the downswing. I don't know how good your "eye" has become when comparing your swing to a professional's swing, but to my eye you have come up and out of the shot by 6/100. Solve that puzzle and you will have solved the riddle of the Master Move to the Master Position. Even Bertholy didn't know the solution. A few years back I posted how I went about dealing with the dilemma, but even though what I did helped me, I think that in the end I was just lucky to stumble onto the thing relatively early after I started Bertholy training. Paul told me that no one ever got "it" in less than 9 months, and I was some months past that when it fell into place for me.

Best wishes,
Tom
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 15th, 2009, 5:00 pm #4

I've been doing the Bertholy programs daily now for 11 months. I've become quite good at holding the angles as I am consistently retaining 90* half-way through the DS. However, I seem to be losing much of this angle retention soon after 6/100's.

In my search for why this was happening, I discovered that I wasn't executing the master move correctly, even after all of this time with PB. This led me to understand, for the first time, the real importance of doing the master move.

It was my initial thought that the MM causes you to retain the angles. However, I discovered this wasn't exactly the case, rather that it was an active bicep curl that allowed me to retain the angles. So I basically ignored the MM.

However, we've recently talked about trail arm bend at impact. I realized that my trail arm was straightening out well in advance of impact, and I didn't understand why. I now understand the reason to be that I would start my trail shoulder rotation down to the ball right from the top of BS which left my hands well behind the ball at 6/100's. My only recourse was to straighten the trail arm in an attempt to reach the ball and make contact.



In the photo above, you can see that, even though I retained the angles well into the DS, my hands are still well behind the ball at 6/100's. By contrast, Charles Howell III hand's are directly over the ball at 6/100's. Granted this is probably a short iron, but even if the ball were forward for a long-iron, his hands would be very close to the ball at 6/100's (see red lines.)

This is the true importance of the MM. By shifting your weight BEFORE initiating the trail shoulder rotation down to the ball, it allows you to get your hands close to the ball by 6/100's so that you can drop the club on the ball with good angle retention, hands well ahead of the ball at impact.
Petearm and I have discussed this a number of times here - the tendency to 'loose it' at the very end. Petearm seems to have fixed this between his time at the Bertholy school in VA and digging divots in his back yard.

From your photo I think you may have an issue I had - your body is in the way of your trail elbow. When this happens your trail elbow is trying to 'seek your navel' (to use the Bertholy term) but it never gets past your trail hip when viewed perpendicular to the target line. The fix for me was to rotate my pelvis (or as Sam Snead told Eisenhower - 'You gotta stick your a$$ out.') which makes more of a space for your trail elbow to get forward.

Peter
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

December 15th, 2009, 9:53 pm #5

I've been doing the Bertholy programs daily now for 11 months. I've become quite good at holding the angles as I am consistently retaining 90* half-way through the DS. However, I seem to be losing much of this angle retention soon after 6/100's.

In my search for why this was happening, I discovered that I wasn't executing the master move correctly, even after all of this time with PB. This led me to understand, for the first time, the real importance of doing the master move.

It was my initial thought that the MM causes you to retain the angles. However, I discovered this wasn't exactly the case, rather that it was an active bicep curl that allowed me to retain the angles. So I basically ignored the MM.

However, we've recently talked about trail arm bend at impact. I realized that my trail arm was straightening out well in advance of impact, and I didn't understand why. I now understand the reason to be that I would start my trail shoulder rotation down to the ball right from the top of BS which left my hands well behind the ball at 6/100's. My only recourse was to straighten the trail arm in an attempt to reach the ball and make contact.



In the photo above, you can see that, even though I retained the angles well into the DS, my hands are still well behind the ball at 6/100's. By contrast, Charles Howell III hand's are directly over the ball at 6/100's. Granted this is probably a short iron, but even if the ball were forward for a long-iron, his hands would be very close to the ball at 6/100's (see red lines.)

This is the true importance of the MM. By shifting your weight BEFORE initiating the trail shoulder rotation down to the ball, it allows you to get your hands close to the ball by 6/100's so that you can drop the club on the ball with good angle retention, hands well ahead of the ball at impact.
Now that my book is into a few hands, I have a had a chance to review video of several folks that are just starting out with the exercises. More and more I see the importance of the first two exercises, and the need to "get it" in these before moving on. How you start out goes a long way toward how you end up...both in your overall golf improvement and in each individual swing.

Case in point about the trail elbow. After about a year doing the programs, I was still not getting it and my trail elbow was still not always in the ideal position. I read Peter's 4.5 drill and just decided to incorporate that into all the Bertholy drills I did - every one of them - "if you can't beat em may as well join em" type of thinking. May as well set it there, and keep it there throughout the drill, and that should make easier to "get it there" by impact. "Why fight it any longer?" - that was my thinking.

What I was doing is what I am now seeing repeated in the video my customer's send me. They START OUT with their trail elbow pointing behind them, whereas I now START OUT with it already tucked in and pointing to my navel:



I keep it tucked in close all the way up and all the way down:





I do this in all my "non-swing" drills, and "over train for it" - or like Bertholy says "train like a boxer". This gives me the best chance for it to show up in a real swing:



It is interesting too, if you start out like this, you will very quickly see that your body will move in a very specific way in order for your trail elbow get where it needs to be. In other words, you don't have to do any thinking at all about what your hips and such are doing - they will do it.
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

December 16th, 2009, 1:25 am #6

Petearm and I have discussed this a number of times here - the tendency to 'loose it' at the very end. Petearm seems to have fixed this between his time at the Bertholy school in VA and digging divots in his back yard.

From your photo I think you may have an issue I had - your body is in the way of your trail elbow. When this happens your trail elbow is trying to 'seek your navel' (to use the Bertholy term) but it never gets past your trail hip when viewed perpendicular to the target line. The fix for me was to rotate my pelvis (or as Sam Snead told Eisenhower - 'You gotta stick your a$$ out.') which makes more of a space for your trail elbow to get forward.

Peter
is still intact at 6/100's. The forward spine tilt of 34* is about where I started out at address and well within the tour pro average of 35*. It's not so much that my trail hip is in the way, but rather by not doing the Master Move, I'm driving my trail shoulder/elbow down too early and getting it stuck back behind my hip . By just delaying the trail shoulder/elbow rotation down by a little, it now allows me to drop the assembly in front of the trail hip, rather than behind it. I think that this is the real purpose of the MM.

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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

December 16th, 2009, 1:33 am #7

Allen - I think that I write with some credibility when I address the Bertholy Method because I not only used the Method for 18 years with much success but I also took lessons from Paul Bertholy. He told me that few of his students ever attained the elusive Master Move to the Master Position but that even those who don't can nevertheless develope a fine and functional Bertholy Method swing. Bertholy confirmed that I was one of the fortunate ones to achieve the Master Move & Master Position and it seems clear to me that you are correct in describing what your swing lacks in appearance vis a vis Charles Howell. However, in my opinion, the difference is not just a matter of degree of angle retention which you may think you might correct by holding your angles deeper into the downswing. I don't know how good your "eye" has become when comparing your swing to a professional's swing, but to my eye you have come up and out of the shot by 6/100. Solve that puzzle and you will have solved the riddle of the Master Move to the Master Position. Even Bertholy didn't know the solution. A few years back I posted how I went about dealing with the dilemma, but even though what I did helped me, I think that in the end I was just lucky to stumble onto the thing relatively early after I started Bertholy training. Paul told me that no one ever got "it" in less than 9 months, and I was some months past that when it fell into place for me.

Best wishes,
Tom
that I'm trying to hold the angles deeper into the swing, but rather utilize them later in the swing. By doing the MM, I delay the beginning of the release so that when I reach 6/100's my hands are over the ball with the angle retention still intact. I don't have to "hold" the angles or try to increase them using any additional force to accomplish this. Again, I see this as the real value of the MM.

And yes, this swing exhibits another one of my flaws in that I'm letting the trail heel rise early in the DS. The result is that the entire trail side comes up prematurely and I "stand-up." I'm working on this now by focusing on rolling the trail foot and keeping the trail side down until well after impact.
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

December 16th, 2009, 2:30 pm #8

Now that my book is into a few hands, I have a had a chance to review video of several folks that are just starting out with the exercises. More and more I see the importance of the first two exercises, and the need to "get it" in these before moving on. How you start out goes a long way toward how you end up...both in your overall golf improvement and in each individual swing.

Case in point about the trail elbow. After about a year doing the programs, I was still not getting it and my trail elbow was still not always in the ideal position. I read Peter's 4.5 drill and just decided to incorporate that into all the Bertholy drills I did - every one of them - "if you can't beat em may as well join em" type of thinking. May as well set it there, and keep it there throughout the drill, and that should make easier to "get it there" by impact. "Why fight it any longer?" - that was my thinking.

What I was doing is what I am now seeing repeated in the video my customer's send me. They START OUT with their trail elbow pointing behind them, whereas I now START OUT with it already tucked in and pointing to my navel:



I keep it tucked in close all the way up and all the way down:





I do this in all my "non-swing" drills, and "over train for it" - or like Bertholy says "train like a boxer". This gives me the best chance for it to show up in a real swing:



It is interesting too, if you start out like this, you will very quickly see that your body will move in a very specific way in order for your trail elbow get where it needs to be. In other words, you don't have to do any thinking at all about what your hips and such are doing - they will do it.
a similar thing by accident on my own. The first frame below shows my trail elbow position at the top of BS early in the PB training (notice the club head circled in red!) I found it exceedingly difficult to get the trail elbow into the proper tucked position by 6/100's from here. Good angle retention didn't become a consistent reality until I modified my top of BS to the trail elbow position shown in the second frame.

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 16th, 2009, 5:36 pm #9

is still intact at 6/100's. The forward spine tilt of 34* is about where I started out at address and well within the tour pro average of 35*. It's not so much that my trail hip is in the way, but rather by not doing the Master Move, I'm driving my trail shoulder/elbow down too early and getting it stuck back behind my hip . By just delaying the trail shoulder/elbow rotation down by a little, it now allows me to drop the assembly in front of the trail hip, rather than behind it. I think that this is the real purpose of the MM.

Your pelvis is rolled 'under' and your trail hip is clearly in the way of your trail elbow. From the position shown you will not be able to get your hands over the ball with the club horizontal because your trail elbow can not move far enough towards the target.

Peter
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

December 16th, 2009, 5:50 pm #10

of Tiger is glowing, they don't discuss his oft mentioned problem of getting "stuck" on his right side. The analysts always attribute this to his hips being too fast which gets out of sync with his upper body. While this could be the case, you can see that Tiger has very little if any Master Move:



Compare that to Scott H, who has the biggest MM that I have ever seen:



I'm essentially encountering the same problem as Tiger, in that by not doing a MM, and by driving the trail shoulder/elbow down from the top of BS, the trail elbow gets "stuck" behind the trail hip.
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