IMA Question for Peter

IMA Question for Peter

gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

December 7th, 2011, 7:23 am #1

Peter

Do you feel that you swing the club mostly with your right hand or with your left hand when making an IMA swing? I feel as if I am swinging almost completely with the right hand. My problem with IMA has always been the left hand seems to interfere with the motion of my right hand. At one point in the video Scott states that the motion is the right hand with the left hand not interfering and he then demonstrates holding the club horizontally out if front of the body and working back down into a normal address position. When I do the drills I do OK until I add my left hand on to the club and then I have problems. I have been able to get by in the past by moving my left thumb around on the grip like a baseball bat grip. I even sent Scott an email in the ask Scott forum at Scigolf here is my question and Scott's answehttp://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/archives ... ion159.htm

Another way I have been able to swing using what I think is the IMA right hand motion is to split my hands apart on the grip. This split grip only allows my left hand to hold on to the club and not interfere with the right hand motion during the swing. Here is a question that Scott answered from someone else about using a split grip with IMA
http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/archives ... ion292.htm

I would like very much to improve enough to be able to use IMA exactly as Scott teaches that is the reason that I am trying the different grips that Scott teaches and the reverse overlap seems to keep the left hand out of the swing better than the ten finger grip, interlock or standard overlap grip does. I would go to an IMA golf school or to an IMA teaching pro in a heartbeat if I could find one somewhere as I truly do believe that the IMA golf swing is the best SA golf swing taught.


Stan
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 7th, 2011, 10:29 pm #2

When I started IMA it definitely was a trail arm swing. The problem was that I found it impossible to achieve some IMA fundamentals like a proper 6/100s position with the club parallel to the target line while I conceived of it that way. I integrated Bertholy with IMA and that led to a trail arm focus but the focus was on keeping the trail arm bent at elbow and wrist ('like a dog's hind leg'). This allowed me to achieve a proper 6/100s position (note that a proper 6/100s position REQUIRES your trail arm be bent apx 90 deg at elbow and wrist - Look at Scott's trail arm position in the clips in the library). Now my swing is lead arm focused and I attempt to keep my trail elbow as close to my trail side as I can short of going to my 4.5 drill. I've found that a proper trail arm position feels like my trail hand is not on the club (note that John Daly feels the same way and does lead arm only swings in his warm up) so to the extent I think about my trail arm it's to make sure I don't feel it in the swing.

Note that years of doing IMA drills and video give me a level of confidence that my trail arm action is correct per Impact Backwards Drills 1 & 2. While drill #2 requires active straightening of the trail wrist, the trail wrist is not active in the full swing. Drill #2 is just to train your wrist to do the motion with no rotation (pro/sup). Scott notes in his intro to drill #3 that your trail wrist should not be active as it was in drill #2. I use the drill #3 swing for pitches and sand shots. If you practice with it in the sand it will be very clear that you can not get to a proper impact position consistently with the trail wrist active as it is in drill #2. The term that I've found helpful is that with drill #3 you need to 'push with the trail wrist bent'. When you do this so that the straightening comes as a result of geometry and not muscle action you will get a very consistent impact with hands ahead of club head.

Though Scott does not say this in the video, it is also clear that the active extension of the trail arm for drill #3, like the wrist in drill #2, is not active in drill #4, 5 or the full swing. When done well your trail arm will extend and VERY quickly in a full swing. It might even feel like YOU extended it but if you try to extend it the feeling will go away. Geometry (and some other IMA components) will cause your trail arm to extend faster than it can from muscle action.

Years ago I think it might have been bobky who gave a good analogy here: You see someone running down the street behind a car with his hands on the trunk. You don't know if 1) He's pushing the car, 2) He's hitting the trunk trying to get the attention of the people inside because they left something at home, or 3) His tie got stuck when he closed the trunk and he's being pulled down the road by the car. There is scientific data and pictures of golfers like Vijay immediately post impact that indicate the situation is #3 for tour pros for the full swing.

In Scott's answer to your first question he mentioned a problem that caused him not to keep his thumb around the club. If you are not having that problem then there is an IMA fundamental that you are missing. With IMA the rotation of the club face to square is controlled and caused by the straightening of your trail arm and wrist (along with the deceleration of the body caused by 'catching' yourself in impact position on your lead leg AND lead arm support). If you do this correctly the grip will be hitting your trail arm forearm as the club goes to parallel to the target line in the follow through. If your thumb is around the grip it will hit your forearm. If it's not then either the rotation of the lead arm is not happening as it should or there is pro/sup of your trail wrist. Personally I found that my trail arm would sometimes push my lead arm and not cause it to rotate as much as it should (leaving an open club face and a slice). To address this I created a drill I called 2.5 (because it's halfway between 2 & 3). NOTE - You absolutely should not try to use the muscles manipulating your lead arm to rotate it!

I have never found that my lead hand 'interfered' with my trail hand motion but I think that a split grip will make it less likely you will get to a proper 6/100s position in a full swing. The torque created by the distance between the lead hand (pivot) and trail hand operates to destroy a proper 6/100s even if your trail hand/arm is completely passive. This is because the weight of your trail arm creates the torque unless you prevent it either actively or through training (Bertholy). A split grip increases the lever arm and so the torque.

Instead of changing grips I'd suggest going back to IMA fundamentals but with different thoughts behind the drills. Drill #2 you have an active trail wrist. After drill #2 your trail wrist should be completely relaxed. This will make drill #3 feel different. Add in my 2.5 drill with a relaxed trail wrist as I direct so that you get the feel of trail arm extension causing your lead arm to rotate.

Drill #3 keeps the feel from 2.5 with lead arm 'swing' (lead arm is stationary in 2.5).

Drill #4 is done with NO shoulder turn (important) and has a passive trail arm with regard to straightening at the elbow and wrist. The goal is to get your trail elbow into place in front of and VERY close to the front of your trail hip with the club parallel to the target line and apx horizontal.

Drill #5 adds shoulder rotation that makes the task of drill #4 and the others more difficult but still is done from impact position so your weight is on your lead foot.

Full swing adds transfer of weight to the lead foot (not as much there to start) and a more 'normal impact position.

Peter
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Joined: June 13th, 2005, 8:24 pm

December 7th, 2011, 11:42 pm #3

Can you post a video of your hitting golf balls on grass? I would be interested to see exactly how much lag you have?
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 8th, 2011, 12:11 am #4

After finding that people appropriated images of me and posted them in other places without my permission I no longer post pictures or video.

Peter
Last edited by sagf_moderator on December 8th, 2011, 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

December 8th, 2011, 12:58 am #5

When I started IMA it definitely was a trail arm swing. The problem was that I found it impossible to achieve some IMA fundamentals like a proper 6/100s position with the club parallel to the target line while I conceived of it that way. I integrated Bertholy with IMA and that led to a trail arm focus but the focus was on keeping the trail arm bent at elbow and wrist ('like a dog's hind leg'). This allowed me to achieve a proper 6/100s position (note that a proper 6/100s position REQUIRES your trail arm be bent apx 90 deg at elbow and wrist - Look at Scott's trail arm position in the clips in the library). Now my swing is lead arm focused and I attempt to keep my trail elbow as close to my trail side as I can short of going to my 4.5 drill. I've found that a proper trail arm position feels like my trail hand is not on the club (note that John Daly feels the same way and does lead arm only swings in his warm up) so to the extent I think about my trail arm it's to make sure I don't feel it in the swing.

Note that years of doing IMA drills and video give me a level of confidence that my trail arm action is correct per Impact Backwards Drills 1 & 2. While drill #2 requires active straightening of the trail wrist, the trail wrist is not active in the full swing. Drill #2 is just to train your wrist to do the motion with no rotation (pro/sup). Scott notes in his intro to drill #3 that your trail wrist should not be active as it was in drill #2. I use the drill #3 swing for pitches and sand shots. If you practice with it in the sand it will be very clear that you can not get to a proper impact position consistently with the trail wrist active as it is in drill #2. The term that I've found helpful is that with drill #3 you need to 'push with the trail wrist bent'. When you do this so that the straightening comes as a result of geometry and not muscle action you will get a very consistent impact with hands ahead of club head.

Though Scott does not say this in the video, it is also clear that the active extension of the trail arm for drill #3, like the wrist in drill #2, is not active in drill #4, 5 or the full swing. When done well your trail arm will extend and VERY quickly in a full swing. It might even feel like YOU extended it but if you try to extend it the feeling will go away. Geometry (and some other IMA components) will cause your trail arm to extend faster than it can from muscle action.

Years ago I think it might have been bobky who gave a good analogy here: You see someone running down the street behind a car with his hands on the trunk. You don't know if 1) He's pushing the car, 2) He's hitting the trunk trying to get the attention of the people inside because they left something at home, or 3) His tie got stuck when he closed the trunk and he's being pulled down the road by the car. There is scientific data and pictures of golfers like Vijay immediately post impact that indicate the situation is #3 for tour pros for the full swing.

In Scott's answer to your first question he mentioned a problem that caused him not to keep his thumb around the club. If you are not having that problem then there is an IMA fundamental that you are missing. With IMA the rotation of the club face to square is controlled and caused by the straightening of your trail arm and wrist (along with the deceleration of the body caused by 'catching' yourself in impact position on your lead leg AND lead arm support). If you do this correctly the grip will be hitting your trail arm forearm as the club goes to parallel to the target line in the follow through. If your thumb is around the grip it will hit your forearm. If it's not then either the rotation of the lead arm is not happening as it should or there is pro/sup of your trail wrist. Personally I found that my trail arm would sometimes push my lead arm and not cause it to rotate as much as it should (leaving an open club face and a slice). To address this I created a drill I called 2.5 (because it's halfway between 2 & 3). NOTE - You absolutely should not try to use the muscles manipulating your lead arm to rotate it!

I have never found that my lead hand 'interfered' with my trail hand motion but I think that a split grip will make it less likely you will get to a proper 6/100s position in a full swing. The torque created by the distance between the lead hand (pivot) and trail hand operates to destroy a proper 6/100s even if your trail hand/arm is completely passive. This is because the weight of your trail arm creates the torque unless you prevent it either actively or through training (Bertholy). A split grip increases the lever arm and so the torque.

Instead of changing grips I'd suggest going back to IMA fundamentals but with different thoughts behind the drills. Drill #2 you have an active trail wrist. After drill #2 your trail wrist should be completely relaxed. This will make drill #3 feel different. Add in my 2.5 drill with a relaxed trail wrist as I direct so that you get the feel of trail arm extension causing your lead arm to rotate.

Drill #3 keeps the feel from 2.5 with lead arm 'swing' (lead arm is stationary in 2.5).

Drill #4 is done with NO shoulder turn (important) and has a passive trail arm with regard to straightening at the elbow and wrist. The goal is to get your trail elbow into place in front of and VERY close to the front of your trail hip with the club parallel to the target line and apx horizontal.

Drill #5 adds shoulder rotation that makes the task of drill #4 and the others more difficult but still is done from impact position so your weight is on your lead foot.

Full swing adds transfer of weight to the lead foot (not as much there to start) and a more 'normal impact position.

Peter
Thanks Peter

Thanks for the very detailed information about the IMA swing. I have been revisiting my IMA Master The Golf Swing Video the past few weeks and it is obvious that I have misunderstood some of the instructions. I have always tried to cock and un cock my wrist with all the IMA drills and that may in fact be where I lose my swing when using IMA. I have a net setup in my garage so I can do the IMA drills over and over all winter long and be ready when the weather breaks. It makes sense to me that if I have been trying to use the same motion that drills 1 and 2 teach with drills 3 and 4 (I stop at drill 4 so that I don't make a turn) That the only way I could hit the ball OK would be to split my hands because that causes me to use my wrist a lot less. Now that you have cleared that problem up I will do the drills the way you described. The last time I played golf I used my not yet correct version of IMA and hit the ball rather well without stressing my spine. I have tried to make IMA work for me in the past but I always would give it up and go back to my old swing due to inconsistency. I would dearly love to be able to make IMA or any other SA swing to work as taught by the swings instructor as that would give me some fundamentals that I could always practice that would hopefully keep me swinging the same way everyday. I have almost made it to that point before with IMA and with BGG but either back pain or inconsistency or hardheadedness caused me to change. I am going to try IMA for a while and see where it takes me. Peter, do you know of any IMA schools or instructors that still teach in the United States? I think Scott is in Vancouver, Canada now and that is a long way from my Old Kentucky Home. I would go to a school or take lessons from a certified IMA instructor if I could only find one.



Stan
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 8th, 2011, 3:21 am #6

To my knowledge Scott is the only IMA instructor. Scott does travel around doing classes in different places. He may start that up again given that his venture with Parmasters has ended. You can contact Scott through Scigolf.

Peter
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