hitter vs. swinger

hitter vs. swinger

Joined: August 25th, 2000, 7:17 pm

June 8th, 2010, 5:22 pm #1

One of the distinctions that has been made between golfers on this forum in the past has been whether the person was a swinger or a hitter.Are any of the single axis methods discussed here identified as hitter or swinger methods.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 8th, 2010, 7:36 pm #2

LPG states explicitly, if incorrectly, that the vast majority of the power comes from the trail arm triceps and the muscles that straighten (flexion) the wrist. This might imply hitting though the direction to push your trail hand away from your trail upper arm from top of swing would not have the 'hit' in the direction of the ball or target.

Scott answered in his oown way in Ask Scott for IMA. Later in Ask Scott when asked if Moe was a 'pusher' ('hitter') or a 'puller' (swinger) Scott said that while he does not agree with the use of such terms, Moe would be a considered a 'puller'. Given this then all golf 'systems' that atempt to emulate Moe should be 'puller' systems.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 16th, 2005, 10:50 am

June 9th, 2010, 1:06 pm #3

One of the distinctions that has been made between golfers on this forum in the past has been whether the person was a swinger or a hitter.Are any of the single axis methods discussed here identified as hitter or swinger methods.
The two most common methods of classifying hitter vs swinger are tempo (duration of swing), and the speed/force of the transition. Most SA swings are quick and forceful to my eye. Todd Graves likes to say that when he split screens a video of a typical student with a video of Moe, Moe is finished before the student has completed the backswing. Then again, it's hard to do it fast while learning. So if Moe is the model, you're looking at a hitter.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 9th, 2010, 2:13 pm #4

to have 'interesting' ideas of how golf swings are classified that I've never seen or heard of before. What reference can you point to for your classifications of 'swinger' vs 'hitter'?

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

June 9th, 2010, 5:57 pm #5

The two most common methods of classifying hitter vs swinger are tempo (duration of swing), and the speed/force of the transition. Most SA swings are quick and forceful to my eye. Todd Graves likes to say that when he split screens a video of a typical student with a video of Moe, Moe is finished before the student has completed the backswing. Then again, it's hard to do it fast while learning. So if Moe is the model, you're looking at a hitter.
Rate of acceleration at the ball is used for club fitting. Some really long hitters like Nicklaus in his prime have a relatively slow rate of acceleration. I read somewhere, probably Golf Digest that Nicklaus was surprised to find out that a favorite driver was an R flex. He could use it because of his slow acceleration at impact in spite of the high clubhead speed. A while back True Temper came out with a club or shaft of some kind that could be swung to determine the rate of acceleration for club fitting. Of course launch monitors take care of that sort of thing now days.

Anyway I guess that what you are saying is that a person with late or more violent acceleration is a 'hitter' while someone with a lower rate of acceleration might be considered a 'swinger'? Note that overall tempo could be the same for both players.

Regards, Herbert
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 8th, 2002, 4:20 pm

June 9th, 2010, 10:18 pm #6

One of the distinctions that has been made between golfers on this forum in the past has been whether the person was a swinger or a hitter.Are any of the single axis methods discussed here identified as hitter or swinger methods.
distinctions:
Heres some differences:
SWINGER- usually a lower body (legs and hips) power source, more of a hip turn on the BS, left foot off the ground in the BS, usually more coil than a hitter, power source is mainly via the upper body rotation or pivot with quite hands, centrifugal (centripetal) force is the power and release mechanism (COAM), DS is driven by the legs, , wider BS, higher at the top, power from the lead side dragging the club (drag loading), trail arm more vertical to maintain the arc, Trail arm usually higher than the lead are in the BS, trail elbow more in front of the trail hip (as opposed to alongside the hip(though this can vary depending on whether youre a long or short swinger), DS is usually a slide then a turn instead of just a turn), swing can be quite handsy depending on the player, mostly a horizontal hinging of the club (as opposed to angled hinging) (Norman, Love, Woods, Mickelson, Furyk)
HITTER-usually an upper body power source; shorter back swing and follow through, generally a stronger grip, quicker acceleration, tend to be right side dominant ( more force applied from the right side as the dominant power source); applied force (rather the centrifugal force), trail arm usually lower than the lead arm in the BS, loads the trail arm usually with a flying trail elbow with the upper arm in line with the spine angle, levers the trail arm against the trail shoulder for the trail arm push release (push loading),angled hinging release, lead foot usually remains on the ground in the BS and both feet usually on the ground at impact, trail elbow in on the trail hip at impact (not in front of the hip), shorter follow through due to hitting against the left side and most all energy expended at impact. (Stadler, Waldorf, Perry, Parry, Lietzke, Sutton).

These distinctions are often blurred with some of the more modern players having both characteristics. As Croker said its good to have some of both, the golf swing is a swing and a hit (Austin is an example). Depends on physique, strength, flexibility. [Sources: H. Kelly, J. Suttee, L. Blake, M. Evershed, and others]

As an aside, Harvey Pennick said if you are going to play the game, you better learn how to use the legs. That was the key for me along with the Austin/Dunaway and Knudson instruction and getting away from practicing the swing in individual parts.

I have noticed that some of the local PGA instructors I know are teaching older plays more of the Hitting mechanics rather than Swinging mostly because of the loss of leg strength and hip and torso flexibility, and because most are overweight and out of shape.
Just Google swinger vs Hitter and you will find more info than you care to read.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 18th, 2010, 8:26 pm

June 9th, 2010, 11:48 pm #7

Thanks Sacto............that was very informative!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: May 15th, 2010, 12:01 am

June 10th, 2010, 1:50 am #8

One of the distinctions that has been made between golfers on this forum in the past has been whether the person was a swinger or a hitter.Are any of the single axis methods discussed here identified as hitter or swinger methods.
Interesting Thread,

I am new to golf and have joined several forums to gather insight. However, the best description of how a golf swing actually functions from a physics stand point is a book I found titled The Physics of Golf second edition by Thoedore P. Jorgensen. In this book the power of a hit (distance achieved) is a function of club head velocity only. The challenge is maintaining control over the club head with respect to club face orientation when contacting the ball. As far as what type of swing generate the maximum velocity that allows some type of control. is a non vice grip (free hinge wrist)on the club allowing the centrifugal force to accelerate the club head while minimizing the amount of shaft flex which comes from wrist torque forces.

I have tried this and I do hit further, however, my consistency leaves a lot to be desired. Hopefully this will improve with time.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 10th, 2010, 3:57 am #9

is foundational. You will find that there's been a lot more work done beyond Jorgensen. If you use the forums search function and search on "science survey" (without the quotes) you'll find a number of papers that have been discussed here.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 16th, 2005, 10:50 am

June 10th, 2010, 4:20 am #10

Rate of acceleration at the ball is used for club fitting. Some really long hitters like Nicklaus in his prime have a relatively slow rate of acceleration. I read somewhere, probably Golf Digest that Nicklaus was surprised to find out that a favorite driver was an R flex. He could use it because of his slow acceleration at impact in spite of the high clubhead speed. A while back True Temper came out with a club or shaft of some kind that could be swung to determine the rate of acceleration for club fitting. Of course launch monitors take care of that sort of thing now days.

Anyway I guess that what you are saying is that a person with late or more violent acceleration is a 'hitter' while someone with a lower rate of acceleration might be considered a 'swinger'? Note that overall tempo could be the same for both players.

Regards, Herbert
I'm familiar with the terms as used in clubfitting. It may be that TGM and such have their definitions of the terms. So maybe we are talking apples and oranges here. In shaft fitting, in addition to swing speed, you look at tempo, transition, release, and overall strength. Among other things too. The terms hitter and swinger are generalizations of that method especially with regards to tempo and transition. You're right, Jack was a swinger. Nick Price for example is more of a hitter. The swinger builds his speed more gradually, late release notwithstanding. Often the swinger likes a softer shaft than his swing speed might indicate. A hitter benefits from a shaft that would otherwise be stout for his swing speed.

Peter, hopefully this also answers your question as to where I'm coming from. Are you skeptical of classifying a style based on what the golfer himself reports as his power source? Golfers, even tour pros, often think they do one thing while doing another instead. Maybe there is some stylistic distinction that can be seen by an observer, other than the observations/measurements I mentioned above. It sure sounds like something TGM would cover, maybe by other names.
Quote
Like
Share