Hi Sally!!

Hi Sally!!

Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

July 28th, 2011, 6:43 am #1

I have read some of your posts with interest as I have also been teaching golf for many years.

I would like to see some pictures of the Flippin release you are talking about, or maybe a link to some pictures or videos.

Show us a good example of what you are claiming.

Best regards,

Ham
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Joined: July 22nd, 2011, 1:46 am

July 28th, 2011, 9:47 pm #2

Ham dear, I realy do not have the time or desire to debate you on this. Because, no matter what I say, there will be those who will try and be contrary and argumentative, seems that is the way it is on many of internet golf forums. A lot of chest beating, not for me Ham!

I live and work in a small country town, the course I play on is just a 6050 yard muni from the mens tees, it is just basic golf, but fun. I teach part-time there, just leave my card out and I get some bites every so often. And I work with the girl's camp here every summer, that is about it. Just a humble golfer, a humble person, I have nothing to prove and don't have the energy dear to debate all this. Sorry, but golf has to be fun first and foremost.

I am not interested in playing at a pro level, no time with a full time job and two teenagers in the house. I shoot to a 10 from the mens tees (6050 yards), that is about the best I can do, and can do a whole lot better from the lady's tees (5400 yards). I play both, depending on who I am with, but it is always fun! I have no time to worry about plane, lag, where my elbows are, weight shift, whatever. I have worked mostly on setup and balance, and my only swing thought is releasing from the top down and through. A downward never ending slap through the ball, I say through, not at! My release feels like it never ends, no other way to describe it. No effort whatsoever to hold any angle and produce lag and a delayed hit. On video, I sure don't look like Sergio, but there is no blatant throwaway, one could assume I am holding the angle all the way down, I am not. I am turning my core, never quitting, and most importantly trying to maintain a sense of acceleration through the ball. All while staying in balance and maintaining decent alignments from start to finish.

I have many happy students and many of my girls come back year after year and a few have went on to play in high school and local competitions at the club and locally. My approach works quickly, they get the satisfaction and positive reinforcement of a good hit very fast. Swing plane happens out of good setup, and lag comes from learning how to use the core properly. It all happens without making it happen. We are just out there for fun. We are not obsessed with pro style contact or how things look. I am not out to impress with fancy theories or nomenclature. I want my girls and the few students I teach to want to come back, and keeping it simple without a hundred swing thoughts is what I strive to do.

I try to be honest. Golf is full of lies. In my opinion, to charge over a hundred dollars or more for an hour or less is robberry. I am happy with a third of that, and if I get a tip that is great , but don't expect it. The satisfaction of seeing progress is worth more to me than suckering someone out of hard earned money, because people work hard for their money and I am not offering anything more than showing them how to hit a ball. There are some out there that will pay anything, I feel sorry for them because some of the finest most dedicated teachers you will find are at your local range, muni, or high school coaching staff. I do not deserve more money or kudos or notoriety than a fireman, or policeman, or nurse, or teacher. All I show someone to do is hit a stupid ball sitting there on the ground. How many books and ebooks and DVD's make wild claims about improvement? How many balls are the longest, how many clubs are the longest! How may training aids purport to promote muscle memory and the perfect swing in only 5 minutes a day. I cannot stoop to this level. Lying is very pervasive in golf, so much is exaggerated and distorted. A marketeer I am not, and is golf ever full of them. And I will not stoop to endless debate and putting up with insults and sarcasm that awaits, if I try and defend myself further. It seems like almost every civil discussion on many of these groups ends up with someone calling names or being sarcastic, hey this is just golf here. It is about fun, I have no ill will toward no one, and really don't want to deal with the harshness of self proclaimed know it alls who in real life might be a bunch of hacks. Anyone can talk the talk and use buzz words and preach a certain philoophy or methodology , but can they play? You never know, because we will never meet or have the fortune to play in most instances.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts Ham, golf is in big trouble. And I do not believe that the economy is going to get any better in the near future, and the time and financial resources people have for the game are going to be more limited than ever. So, we have a very limited time with a perspective student, and I believe my approach achieves the goal of getting the student hitting the ball and getting him/her exciited to want to keep on learning and playing. And once we get some good ball contact, then quickly focusing to the short game and putting, to round it all out. The typical student has no interest in the type of debate and terminology I see here and elsewhere, that appeals to a very small group. That is certainly all right, I can think of worse ways to spend ones time, but 99% of most golfers could care less.

Bless you Ham and have a great day!

Sally

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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

July 30th, 2011, 8:43 pm #3

at least you know you have no proof to support your position.

The problem is that your students know nothing better then your halfway attempt at instruction. If you informed yourself a bit, maybe you could help your students have more fun playing the game. Anyway, in the end it is your and their loss.

Time to bury your head in the sand again. Hope you can get out of it sometime.

Best regards,

Ham
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Joined: July 22nd, 2011, 1:46 am

July 30th, 2011, 8:56 pm #4

And that is why I will make no effort to have a reasonable discussion with you.

My head is in the sand? So be it Ham dear!

I have read all the main golf books out there, seen a lot of the DVDs, know all the jargon. My students deserve better and they get it. Because if all the current jargon and theories worked so well, we would see some movement in handicaps over the past 30 years, they have not really moved much at all. And we would not continue to see so many new golfers leave the game in frustration, after a year of trying.

Just a game, just a nice day out for most. 99% do not have the time or interest to learn all the complicated theories and drills that show up here and elsewhere. My students get 5 lessons for the price that some charge for one and they WILL learn how to advance the ball well and will learn the basics of a good short game. You and your ilk complicate things so. I will not. And if that means my head is in the sand, I think I will keep it there a whole lot longer.

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Joined: July 30th, 2011, 11:52 pm

July 31st, 2011, 12:07 am #5

Ham dear, I realy do not have the time or desire to debate you on this. Because, no matter what I say, there will be those who will try and be contrary and argumentative, seems that is the way it is on many of internet golf forums. A lot of chest beating, not for me Ham!

I live and work in a small country town, the course I play on is just a 6050 yard muni from the mens tees, it is just basic golf, but fun. I teach part-time there, just leave my card out and I get some bites every so often. And I work with the girl's camp here every summer, that is about it. Just a humble golfer, a humble person, I have nothing to prove and don't have the energy dear to debate all this. Sorry, but golf has to be fun first and foremost.

I am not interested in playing at a pro level, no time with a full time job and two teenagers in the house. I shoot to a 10 from the mens tees (6050 yards), that is about the best I can do, and can do a whole lot better from the lady's tees (5400 yards). I play both, depending on who I am with, but it is always fun! I have no time to worry about plane, lag, where my elbows are, weight shift, whatever. I have worked mostly on setup and balance, and my only swing thought is releasing from the top down and through. A downward never ending slap through the ball, I say through, not at! My release feels like it never ends, no other way to describe it. No effort whatsoever to hold any angle and produce lag and a delayed hit. On video, I sure don't look like Sergio, but there is no blatant throwaway, one could assume I am holding the angle all the way down, I am not. I am turning my core, never quitting, and most importantly trying to maintain a sense of acceleration through the ball. All while staying in balance and maintaining decent alignments from start to finish.

I have many happy students and many of my girls come back year after year and a few have went on to play in high school and local competitions at the club and locally. My approach works quickly, they get the satisfaction and positive reinforcement of a good hit very fast. Swing plane happens out of good setup, and lag comes from learning how to use the core properly. It all happens without making it happen. We are just out there for fun. We are not obsessed with pro style contact or how things look. I am not out to impress with fancy theories or nomenclature. I want my girls and the few students I teach to want to come back, and keeping it simple without a hundred swing thoughts is what I strive to do.

I try to be honest. Golf is full of lies. In my opinion, to charge over a hundred dollars or more for an hour or less is robberry. I am happy with a third of that, and if I get a tip that is great , but don't expect it. The satisfaction of seeing progress is worth more to me than suckering someone out of hard earned money, because people work hard for their money and I am not offering anything more than showing them how to hit a ball. There are some out there that will pay anything, I feel sorry for them because some of the finest most dedicated teachers you will find are at your local range, muni, or high school coaching staff. I do not deserve more money or kudos or notoriety than a fireman, or policeman, or nurse, or teacher. All I show someone to do is hit a stupid ball sitting there on the ground. How many books and ebooks and DVD's make wild claims about improvement? How many balls are the longest, how many clubs are the longest! How may training aids purport to promote muscle memory and the perfect swing in only 5 minutes a day. I cannot stoop to this level. Lying is very pervasive in golf, so much is exaggerated and distorted. A marketeer I am not, and is golf ever full of them. And I will not stoop to endless debate and putting up with insults and sarcasm that awaits, if I try and defend myself further. It seems like almost every civil discussion on many of these groups ends up with someone calling names or being sarcastic, hey this is just golf here. It is about fun, I have no ill will toward no one, and really don't want to deal with the harshness of self proclaimed know it alls who in real life might be a bunch of hacks. Anyone can talk the talk and use buzz words and preach a certain philoophy or methodology , but can they play? You never know, because we will never meet or have the fortune to play in most instances.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts Ham, golf is in big trouble. And I do not believe that the economy is going to get any better in the near future, and the time and financial resources people have for the game are going to be more limited than ever. So, we have a very limited time with a perspective student, and I believe my approach achieves the goal of getting the student hitting the ball and getting him/her exciited to want to keep on learning and playing. And once we get some good ball contact, then quickly focusing to the short game and putting, to round it all out. The typical student has no interest in the type of debate and terminology I see here and elsewhere, that appeals to a very small group. That is certainly all right, I can think of worse ways to spend ones time, but 99% of most golfers could care less.

Bless you Ham and have a great day!

Sally
on the game of golf.

Sally, i'm giving you a standing ovation for your perspective and
no-nonsense approach to golf. All, well said.

If i could only get in on one of your lessons.

Thanks for the ray of sunshine,
and please, share more of your thoughts
on golf.

Hoby
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

July 31st, 2011, 2:45 am #6

at least you know you have no proof to support your position.

The problem is that your students know nothing better then your halfway attempt at instruction. If you informed yourself a bit, maybe you could help your students have more fun playing the game. Anyway, in the end it is your and their loss.

Time to bury your head in the sand again. Hope you can get out of it sometime.

Best regards,

Ham
Sally is right about it all. Hopefully she is also right
about having no need to argue about what she is right about.

Hundred to one she doesn't bite.



Oh hell, she already did.
Last edited by sagf_moderator on July 31st, 2011, 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

July 31st, 2011, 2:56 am #7

And that is why I will make no effort to have a reasonable discussion with you.

My head is in the sand? So be it Ham dear!

I have read all the main golf books out there, seen a lot of the DVDs, know all the jargon. My students deserve better and they get it. Because if all the current jargon and theories worked so well, we would see some movement in handicaps over the past 30 years, they have not really moved much at all. And we would not continue to see so many new golfers leave the game in frustration, after a year of trying.

Just a game, just a nice day out for most. 99% do not have the time or interest to learn all the complicated theories and drills that show up here and elsewhere. My students get 5 lessons for the price that some charge for one and they WILL learn how to advance the ball well and will learn the basics of a good short game. You and your ilk complicate things so. I will not. And if that means my head is in the sand, I think I will keep it there a whole lot longer.
While your instruction may be satisfactory for those only interested in a nice day out and advancing the ball it will not in the experience of many here suffice for more. As long as the goals of the student match the instruction provided there are no problems. However if the goals of the student should change to something more than the instruction can support then the student may not be happy with having to unlearn what has been learned and then learning new in order to achieve the new goal.

The fact that someone has found this forum at all means they are likely to have goals that are not consistent with the instructional advice you've provided.

Peter
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

July 31st, 2011, 3:11 am #8

And that is why I will make no effort to have a reasonable discussion with you.

My head is in the sand? So be it Ham dear!

I have read all the main golf books out there, seen a lot of the DVDs, know all the jargon. My students deserve better and they get it. Because if all the current jargon and theories worked so well, we would see some movement in handicaps over the past 30 years, they have not really moved much at all. And we would not continue to see so many new golfers leave the game in frustration, after a year of trying.

Just a game, just a nice day out for most. 99% do not have the time or interest to learn all the complicated theories and drills that show up here and elsewhere. My students get 5 lessons for the price that some charge for one and they WILL learn how to advance the ball well and will learn the basics of a good short game. You and your ilk complicate things so. I will not. And if that means my head is in the sand, I think I will keep it there a whole lot longer.
If your students improve and enjoy the game and you are improving their games and keeping them from quitting golf then that is great! It could be a case of a very talented teacher who is good at getting students swings to improve. On the other hand Ham is also right in that many, many golfers have improved their games by going to pros who teach complicated systems. I am one who went from a 18 to 8 handicap in that way. Now perhaps you would call the teaching and drills of the TGM pro that I went to 'silly' but it worked in my case and also a lot of others.

Here is an example of a pro who uses up to date equipment for teaching using immediate feedback:
http://www.balbigolf.com/aboutus
Would you say that Dave's teaching is 'silly' and that he is driving folks out of the game of golf with his teaching?

To indite the entire golf teaching industry and to come in to this forum and insult the people here and call the drills silly is counter productive to helping anybody. We have heard the golfers don't improve argument ad nauseum for most every 'revolutionary' teacher out there. LOL they all have the answer just like you!

LOL there are plenty here who believe like you do that most teaching pros don't know what they are doing, there just seem to be differing ideas as to what to do about it...

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

July 31st, 2011, 1:37 pm #9

Ham dear, I realy do not have the time or desire to debate you on this. Because, no matter what I say, there will be those who will try and be contrary and argumentative, seems that is the way it is on many of internet golf forums. A lot of chest beating, not for me Ham!

I live and work in a small country town, the course I play on is just a 6050 yard muni from the mens tees, it is just basic golf, but fun. I teach part-time there, just leave my card out and I get some bites every so often. And I work with the girl's camp here every summer, that is about it. Just a humble golfer, a humble person, I have nothing to prove and don't have the energy dear to debate all this. Sorry, but golf has to be fun first and foremost.

I am not interested in playing at a pro level, no time with a full time job and two teenagers in the house. I shoot to a 10 from the mens tees (6050 yards), that is about the best I can do, and can do a whole lot better from the lady's tees (5400 yards). I play both, depending on who I am with, but it is always fun! I have no time to worry about plane, lag, where my elbows are, weight shift, whatever. I have worked mostly on setup and balance, and my only swing thought is releasing from the top down and through. A downward never ending slap through the ball, I say through, not at! My release feels like it never ends, no other way to describe it. No effort whatsoever to hold any angle and produce lag and a delayed hit. On video, I sure don't look like Sergio, but there is no blatant throwaway, one could assume I am holding the angle all the way down, I am not. I am turning my core, never quitting, and most importantly trying to maintain a sense of acceleration through the ball. All while staying in balance and maintaining decent alignments from start to finish.

I have many happy students and many of my girls come back year after year and a few have went on to play in high school and local competitions at the club and locally. My approach works quickly, they get the satisfaction and positive reinforcement of a good hit very fast. Swing plane happens out of good setup, and lag comes from learning how to use the core properly. It all happens without making it happen. We are just out there for fun. We are not obsessed with pro style contact or how things look. I am not out to impress with fancy theories or nomenclature. I want my girls and the few students I teach to want to come back, and keeping it simple without a hundred swing thoughts is what I strive to do.

I try to be honest. Golf is full of lies. In my opinion, to charge over a hundred dollars or more for an hour or less is robberry. I am happy with a third of that, and if I get a tip that is great , but don't expect it. The satisfaction of seeing progress is worth more to me than suckering someone out of hard earned money, because people work hard for their money and I am not offering anything more than showing them how to hit a ball. There are some out there that will pay anything, I feel sorry for them because some of the finest most dedicated teachers you will find are at your local range, muni, or high school coaching staff. I do not deserve more money or kudos or notoriety than a fireman, or policeman, or nurse, or teacher. All I show someone to do is hit a stupid ball sitting there on the ground. How many books and ebooks and DVD's make wild claims about improvement? How many balls are the longest, how many clubs are the longest! How may training aids purport to promote muscle memory and the perfect swing in only 5 minutes a day. I cannot stoop to this level. Lying is very pervasive in golf, so much is exaggerated and distorted. A marketeer I am not, and is golf ever full of them. And I will not stoop to endless debate and putting up with insults and sarcasm that awaits, if I try and defend myself further. It seems like almost every civil discussion on many of these groups ends up with someone calling names or being sarcastic, hey this is just golf here. It is about fun, I have no ill will toward no one, and really don't want to deal with the harshness of self proclaimed know it alls who in real life might be a bunch of hacks. Anyone can talk the talk and use buzz words and preach a certain philoophy or methodology , but can they play? You never know, because we will never meet or have the fortune to play in most instances.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts Ham, golf is in big trouble. And I do not believe that the economy is going to get any better in the near future, and the time and financial resources people have for the game are going to be more limited than ever. So, we have a very limited time with a perspective student, and I believe my approach achieves the goal of getting the student hitting the ball and getting him/her exciited to want to keep on learning and playing. And once we get some good ball contact, then quickly focusing to the short game and putting, to round it all out. The typical student has no interest in the type of debate and terminology I see here and elsewhere, that appeals to a very small group. That is certainly all right, I can think of worse ways to spend ones time, but 99% of most golfers could care less.

Bless you Ham and have a great day!

Sally
of what both Sally and Ham say. Sally is spot on with her assessment on "the state of the game". Much of sound golf instruction has been hijacked by PGA "teaching professionals". I know an golf products manufacturer who told me Pros joked about it with him - "....don't want to give them everything they need, we have to keep them as student HAHAHAHA...."

Ham ( and this forum by and large too ) are right on when they declare if you want to really improve your ball striking, you better pay attention to some fundamentals, and you better be prepared to put in the time and effort to acquire some skills and habits. That's just the way it is.

You can play at guitar, and you can play guitar, and then you can be a rock star. It is all relative to what you desire. But as as Angus Young would say:
It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll
It just depends on what you are after. Golf SHOULD be fun whether you're index is 20 or +2. My finance Kim will never work at the game like I do, but she can hit the ball in the air, it flies straight, and she has a smile on her face...just based on a few things I showed her a couple of times. She's fine with it.

A good teacher paces ( or should ) to the needs of their student. It sounds like Sally is doing a fine job of that and bravo for her if she has happy golfers as students. But as Ham has correctly pointed out, she does have her head in the sand a bit if she thinks things like plane, lag, etc are not important to the aspiring golfer - I wonder how many of Sally's happy golfers play to scratch and have moved on to win any kind of sanctioned event or tournament?

Kevin
A Blueprint For Golf Excellence



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Last edited by mcirishman57 on August 9th, 2011, 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 18th, 2010, 8:26 pm

July 31st, 2011, 2:49 pm #10

My finance Kim
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