Hawkholman Lesson Summary

Hawkholman Lesson Summary

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 3rd, 2011, 11:44 pm #1

Hawk said it was okay to do, but due to my high LOIK (lack of internet knowledge)I just now figured out how to do this! (I posted this in the final answer thread, but thought it might get buried....)

Here is a still of his MGS setup before the lesson and after we tweaked it:



And here is his complete lesson summary, so everyone can see what he is talking about.

All my students receive a summary like this after our time together. That way they can know exactly what was covered instead of struggling trying to "remember what the pro said to do". This is also how I do a video analysis of remote students when they send me a video.

And as Peter has mentioned, most any camera will work, and you can upload the video to YouTube, and in the privacy section select "private". The only people that can view the video is those you send the link to. Send me the link, I will view and download your video and do your analysis, and send you back a PDF like I did Hawk.

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: November 27th, 2004, 1:41 pm

November 4th, 2011, 10:54 am #2

Kevin,

Your swing is now shorter with less use of force for the downswing. If I have this right, you equate economy of motion with force, not to mention greater accuracy. Kiran claims that the height of "10:00" with alignment of arms and club is ideal for the use of gravity.

This may be difficult for you to answer and I'd also be interested to hear from Hawk. How do you bring the club down from the top-of-swing position, in that, what or which muscles (or part of the anatomy if easier to describe) primarily gives impetus to the arms (or club if you wish)?

Also, do you think that this "impetus" has truly changed from your old swing to your new one?

Please give this some thought while taking practice swings.

Scott



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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 4th, 2011, 12:28 pm #3



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Last edited by mcirishman57 on November 4th, 2011, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: May 27th, 2004, 4:56 pm

November 4th, 2011, 5:56 pm #4

Kevin,

Your swing is now shorter with less use of force for the downswing. If I have this right, you equate economy of motion with force, not to mention greater accuracy. Kiran claims that the height of "10:00" with alignment of arms and club is ideal for the use of gravity.

This may be difficult for you to answer and I'd also be interested to hear from Hawk. How do you bring the club down from the top-of-swing position, in that, what or which muscles (or part of the anatomy if easier to describe) primarily gives impetus to the arms (or club if you wish)?

Also, do you think that this "impetus" has truly changed from your old swing to your new one?

Please give this some thought while taking practice swings.

Scott


I am 62, out of shape, and have a history of back problems. For years I have tried to start the downswing by 'bumping' my left hip.....IT DIDN'T WORK......everything turned, including shoulders and over the top I went. I even sent a tape to Remington, but he could not turn me into Moe, even though his 'fart left' pre set was probably on the right track.

I then got into what I call 'correct casting' [a whole thread on this below that I decided to stay out of].......meaning starting the downswing by swinging the clubhead away from the target. Dalton McCrary sold a lot of tapes and instruction books with this method, and it worked very well for me, except when my 'cast' went out toward the ball instead of straight back behind me. [what it felt like]

I tried Kevin's Book and excercises, but just could not make my self put in the reps' that Kevin does.............enter MGS. Immediatley the 'torso turn' prior to starting my backswing helped, because it makes it more unlikely you will come over the top. MGS helped and I was NOT doing it right.

Lesson from Kevin.....greatly improved 'torso turn' pre set and benifitted immediatley at the lesson......[even made Kevin drop an F-Bomb when I smoked an 8 iron], but as you can see in the lesson summary, I was still using way to much 'downforce' with my arms to start the downswing and then coming up out of the shot.

After the lesson with Kevin and talking personally with Kiran, I hit birdie balls in the park using NOTHING in the way of effort to start my downswing. The left arm goes up, then falls. Light grip pressure trying to 'feel the wieght of the clubhead', and then just let it fall, keeping both feet flat on the ground with no forced wieght shift or leg 'drive' until pulled into the follow through.

Last Wednesday I finally was able to 'take it to the course'....I got the chance to hit some balls before playing which helped........and then I did it......NO EFFORT with anything to start the downswing........'MINIMALIZED!!!!' First tee shot was 240 with a little draw on a dogleg left, and it gave me the confidence to repeat it all but 3 times on full shots.

Heading for the range tomorrow and hoping to play Sunday, using no effort to start the downswing. Just raise the left arm and stand there and let it happen.

HAWK
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Joined: November 27th, 2004, 1:41 pm

November 5th, 2011, 12:35 am #5


Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Kevin,

I guess that your response is that you let it happen. Making vs. letting is a cliche. Every swing, good or bad, makes it happen.

As you said in your separate post on the subject in response to my question, "it's the hardest thing to describe." "Let the arm go down."

Muscle contraction in studies can mean both isometric contraction and movement of bone. Studies have limitations.

Kiran has stated that she spent many years "heaving" while making the downswing. She implies that she no longer "heaves." A few weeks back, Tom's well-trained eye caught you "forcing" the club in the downswing. I'm guessing that you apply the same impetus to move your arms in the downswing whether it's the old or new swing ... in your new swing you have just reduced the amount of force you use.

Do you really just "let the arm go down"?

Scott
Last edited by scottiii on November 5th, 2011, 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 5th, 2011, 7:25 am #6

"impact looks forced".

When I wrote of muscle activity studies, I was referring to those that used EMG analysis in measuring MMT in "the modern golf swing" - the classical type we normally refer to here as CG:




I think most here would agree whether SA or CG that MMT is about the same.

You asked if my impetus was the same and I tried to tell you that it isn't. Now you say "you guess" I apply the same impetus to move my arms with my old way and with my new way. So I'm thinking your question was little Ham-ish in that you were trying to help me "discover" what you think you see, and not because you wanted an answer? Perhaps a before and after will help. Here is the "impetus" in my old swing from a year ago:



And here it the impetus in the new swing:



I tried to explain letting it happen. The instruction is to "let" the arm climb steeply up the chest. I tried to explain that it isn't literal ....Of course it doesn't go up there by itself...any more than it goes back down by itself...as I said. But as you can see the "action" to move the arms is a lot different.

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Last edited by mcirishman57 on November 5th, 2011, 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:44 pm

November 6th, 2011, 12:57 am #7

I am 62, out of shape, and have a history of back problems. For years I have tried to start the downswing by 'bumping' my left hip.....IT DIDN'T WORK......everything turned, including shoulders and over the top I went. I even sent a tape to Remington, but he could not turn me into Moe, even though his 'fart left' pre set was probably on the right track.

I then got into what I call 'correct casting' [a whole thread on this below that I decided to stay out of].......meaning starting the downswing by swinging the clubhead away from the target. Dalton McCrary sold a lot of tapes and instruction books with this method, and it worked very well for me, except when my 'cast' went out toward the ball instead of straight back behind me. [what it felt like]

I tried Kevin's Book and excercises, but just could not make my self put in the reps' that Kevin does.............enter MGS. Immediatley the 'torso turn' prior to starting my backswing helped, because it makes it more unlikely you will come over the top. MGS helped and I was NOT doing it right.

Lesson from Kevin.....greatly improved 'torso turn' pre set and benifitted immediatley at the lesson......[even made Kevin drop an F-Bomb when I smoked an 8 iron], but as you can see in the lesson summary, I was still using way to much 'downforce' with my arms to start the downswing and then coming up out of the shot.

After the lesson with Kevin and talking personally with Kiran, I hit birdie balls in the park using NOTHING in the way of effort to start my downswing. The left arm goes up, then falls. Light grip pressure trying to 'feel the wieght of the clubhead', and then just let it fall, keeping both feet flat on the ground with no forced wieght shift or leg 'drive' until pulled into the follow through.

Last Wednesday I finally was able to 'take it to the course'....I got the chance to hit some balls before playing which helped........and then I did it......NO EFFORT with anything to start the downswing........'MINIMALIZED!!!!' First tee shot was 240 with a little draw on a dogleg left, and it gave me the confidence to repeat it all but 3 times on full shots.

Heading for the range tomorrow and hoping to play Sunday, using no effort to start the downswing. Just raise the left arm and stand there and let it happen.

HAWK
Great job it sounds like you are having good success .

Letting it happen can be a challenge. I have always been the type that would swing hard. With either my arms or body or some king of combination. So it is hard to just "Let it Happen " for an old kill the ball hitter. But when you do just "let it happen " or I guess you could say let the arms fall it really does work.
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Joined: November 27th, 2004, 1:41 pm

November 6th, 2011, 12:37 pm #8

"impact looks forced".

When I wrote of muscle activity studies, I was referring to those that used EMG analysis in measuring MMT in "the modern golf swing" - the classical type we normally refer to here as CG:




I think most here would agree whether SA or CG that MMT is about the same.

You asked if my impetus was the same and I tried to tell you that it isn't. Now you say "you guess" I apply the same impetus to move my arms with my old way and with my new way. So I'm thinking your question was little Ham-ish in that you were trying to help me "discover" what you think you see, and not because you wanted an answer? Perhaps a before and after will help. Here is the "impetus" in my old swing from a year ago:



And here it the impetus in the new swing:



I tried to explain letting it happen. The instruction is to "let" the arm climb steeply up the chest. I tried to explain that it isn't literal ....Of course it doesn't go up there by itself...any more than it goes back down by itself...as I said. But as you can see the "action" to move the arms is a lot different.

Kevin



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Kevin,

I assure you that my intention wasn't to help you discover anything. Aside from the lower body change, the difference I see between the two swings is the degree of upper body rotation at about the same downswing position of the arms. That alone might lead me to believe that you make your arms swing down the same way in both the old and new swings. I can't see that the action to move the arms is any different - a reason for asking you the question.

Is the muscle activity chart supposed to tell me how you make your forward swing?

Scott
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 6th, 2011, 1:44 pm #9

In my old way, I keep my arms very passive, connected and uninvolved in any active conscious "swinging". I even made a few videos about it the difference between an "arms only, a shoulder driven, and a whole body driven swing. Here are the clips showing the different impetus' in moving the arms:

Arms swing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8HJMA3Z2e4

Shoulders swing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2kGzF8NoPs

Hips and shoulders:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9exYFWQU ... re=related

So if you look at my lead arm in relation to the chest, you can see in the arms swing that it moves across the chest lots more than in the other two.
It is like a major thing I focused on and centers around the whole idea of "transporting the arms unit intact" down to the ball. Peter first used this phrase and concept years ago and I have been doing it and teaching it ever since.

In the MGS I certainly am swinging my lead arm down, because as you have noticed, there is very little shoulder rotation. There doesn't have to be, and there is no need to "create space" ( hi Ham ) or make room for the arms, the lead arm is freed to swing straight along the inside path with the wall of the chest as it's guide. I am definitely swinging the arms...but not really, just sorta of letting them swing .

I referenced the chart to show you what I was talking about when I meant muscle activity, since you mentioned studies with bones.

Kevin





Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: October 2nd, 2011, 12:23 am

November 6th, 2011, 1:55 pm #10

Great job it sounds like you are having good success .

Letting it happen can be a challenge. I have always been the type that would swing hard. With either my arms or body or some king of combination. So it is hard to just "Let it Happen " for an old kill the ball hitter. But when you do just "let it happen " or I guess you could say let the arms fall it really does work.
For those of you who must have a thought, IF you can MAINTAIN angles set up at address, ie keep your 'closed' shoulder rotation or back facing target position, let it rip! NO forward chest rotation, no right heel picking up off the ground before impact!
MORE power.
Was at the PGA Asia Golf Conference where I said all you need to do to fix EVERY swing fault, is position 7 upper-body joints in positions from which they CANNOT HELP BUT fire powerfully and in correct sequence. That's what MGS does. Kiran
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