Graves, IMA, Natural Golf(NG)... pros/cons

Joined: October 26th, 2007, 12:53 am

October 28th, 2008, 11:41 pm #11

Allen, what your are doing is just fine. Let me explain something to you.

Tom Sanders (bright instructor)teaches a single axis system in which he move the weight to the left side over the instep PLUS he JUTS THE HIPS FORWARD. He is absolutely correct with this idea. Not in swinging to look like Moe, but to get similar effects as Moe.

Let me explain why, and you can learn this looking in a mirror. Set ups with a wide stance, just like you described in your post, and with an imaginary club stand in front of the mirror and start a backswing with the left knee bending pretty close to directly in front of your person. Notice how it kind of keeps your thighs facing forward (kinda), but, also, notice how it rotates your hips into your stumped right leg, which has the weight on the inside of the foot.

As you allow the left knee to bend in front of your person, watch the hips and they will jutt forward, square up, and you will look like Sanders in his address position. It's important to understand this move.

Again, let me explain. As you address the ball, the clubhead is above the flight path...you are reaching, and the clubhead is 9 inches behind the ball, like with a three wood. The first movement is that the hands come in. Why? Because you are reaching out so far!! So that inside motion that Moe has off the ball, especially, with his longer clubs is somewhat determined by that knee flexing in front of his person.

The key point here is to understand that when you have a wide stance, and you set up correctly (you do), then, if the knee flexes in front of the person, the hips will square up, jutt forward a bit and the hips will rotate into the right STUMPED leg...it just all works like clockwork.

Allen, just recently I figured out something that will get your distance back, and I learned it from a fabulous left-handed player on the driving range. He had high hands, and he wanted to rotate the hips off the ball and he hit in front of himself (like Moe), and he had a bent right (bent left for a right handed player), and the key to his power was to brace that bent right knee (left knee in our case).

I got 10 yards back by understand that basic fact. More importantly, I came to understand something that has been bothering me for 13 years. I could never understand how Moe so, precisely, pivoted around the edge of that left shoulder. I tried everything to get that move, including setting up with shoulders closed, and then opening them through the downswing...this was a close idea but no cigar.

Here is another important secret. Moe starts that downswing, with the left knee leading, and it starts before the backswing is completed, and Allen that will work correctly for you, once you understand the knee position on the backswing.

To get the power, on the downswing, you move onto that bent left knee but it is RESISTANT, and this resistance causes a rotation of the upper body around that leg so that you are facing the target and this is what lifts you up and out of the flat footed position.

Now you know all the secrets.
Rem -- that is a great, informative post. I made a copy, and will work in front of the mirror until I have a better understanding of the setup. You need to get busy and write a SA instruction book, it would sell like hotcakes. Not many good books on SA available. I had the Tom Sanders instructional tapes at one time, but just didn't get much out of them. Probably my fault -- good one-on-one instruction would be much more effective I'm sure.

Thanks -- Allen
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

November 1st, 2008, 1:38 am #12

I didn't get Sanders at first either...I will give it another look, but I have Moe's swing down pretty well now....so won't change at this point. Plus, winter is here.
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Joined: October 26th, 2007, 12:53 am

November 1st, 2008, 10:50 pm #13

Rem -- I had the Sanders VHS tapes about 4 years ago, and worked with the swing for six months or so. I drifted back to CG (shame on me) and gave the BGG tapes to a friend. I'm now working with the Graves swing. I was wondering, is the current CD offered by Sanders an updated version of the old BGG swing, or is it the same information as on the old VHS tapes? I might be interested in getting an updated version of the swing. I recently checked in on the BGG golf forum, and there was very little action there. Is the BGG system fading or is there other reasons for no action on the forum? Just curious.

Has winter settled in to a point where you can no longer play golf? later -- Allen
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

November 2nd, 2008, 1:49 pm #14

JK, as it concerns looking through the archives, I would do this with a bit of caution. Some of us have been posting since 1995 (it's a sickness, I tell ya). Most of us had to unlearn the original NG teachings...not that they were bad for that style of technique/equipment; indeed, I shot par, regularly, with that system.

You should have been around during the PUSH/PULL days....went on for years!!

We have all evolved, and the level of knowledge is, relatively, sophisticated today, as compared to just last year. Even the swing developers have all evolved and changed ...in fact, dramatically, in just the last year.

Best to stay with current info on this forum.
In regards to change by the swing developers, FINALLY, the Graves Bros have come out and said that the 1995 Golf Digest article about holding the club in the palm was wrong...an invention of Jack K; not a property of Moe's swing. Lots of stuff that these swing developers should own up to, in order to get single axis as an accepted motion.
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Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am

November 3rd, 2008, 12:34 am #15

Rem -- I had the Sanders VHS tapes about 4 years ago, and worked with the swing for six months or so. I drifted back to CG (shame on me) and gave the BGG tapes to a friend. I'm now working with the Graves swing. I was wondering, is the current CD offered by Sanders an updated version of the old BGG swing, or is it the same information as on the old VHS tapes? I might be interested in getting an updated version of the swing. I recently checked in on the BGG golf forum, and there was very little action there. Is the BGG system fading or is there other reasons for no action on the forum? Just curious.

Has winter settled in to a point where you can no longer play golf? later -- Allen
I am ending my sumo career here in Mn (voice getting embarassingly high), and walked today for one mile on the golf course, which is closed for the season, in 70 degree weather. Took the five iron, and hit a couple of balls along the way.

If I were you, I would understand what the Graves Bros. have to say, and, when you have understanding, take a look at Sanders once again.

Single axis swinging is much easier than it appears from these forums.

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Joined: October 26th, 2007, 12:53 am

November 3rd, 2008, 1:51 pm #16

I have one of the Graves DVD's, and I'm continuing to work on their swing basics, as I understand them. Wish I could attend one of their schools, but this is not financially possible, at this time. The swing seems to be working good for me. I'll spend the winter honing my SA skills.

As for walking, it's one of the best exercises out there, and coupled with proper diet, will help take off those excess pounds. I try to walk daily, along with my gym workouts. As for getting rid of those "love handles," that's another problem, and a tough one for us old guys.

Allen
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Joined: October 26th, 2007, 12:53 am

November 3rd, 2008, 2:04 pm #17

I am ending my sumo career here in Mn (voice getting embarassingly high), and walked today for one mile on the golf course, which is closed for the season, in 70 degree weather. Took the five iron, and hit a couple of balls along the way.

If I were you, I would understand what the Graves Bros. have to say, and, when you have understanding, take a look at Sanders once again.

Single axis swinging is much easier than it appears from these forums.
Along with the Graves swing work, I've also dug out my "Tour Tempo" book and DVD. Started working on smoothing out my swing tempo this weekend. My swing tends to get a little quick. The tempo work helps smooth out my overall swing ----

Allen
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