Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

January 23rd, 2009, 2:03 am #41

For now. Like I said, I am involved in some research to study the biomechanics that I speak of.

I say the lead arm is the clubface, what I meant is that the lead hand is the club-face and the lead arm is attached.

Todd
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

January 23rd, 2009, 2:53 am #42

Todd. You posted: "both arms and hands together as a unit where the lead arm is the club face and straight line at impact and the trail arm supplies the power."

What do you mean by saying that the lead arm is the clubface?

I still do not understand how you make the trail arm supply the power. All "good science" I have seen posted here seems to show that the trail arm is not a major power source. See also the picture of Vijay that Peter posted earlier. You must have something to back up your theory, or is it just your opinion?

Thanks,

Ham
doesn't really prove either viewpoint. He could have given the club
a hell of a fling with his right arm before he let go for instance.

Kinda like you throw a ball?
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 23rd, 2009, 3:25 am #43

"simpletons", like me, who just seem to know when something is right and dive in, I hate to keep mentioning Bertholy says this or that ( not really ) but....

"The number one fault of all golfers, hacker and superstar alike, is the HIT-IMPULSE, STARTING THE DOWNSWING WITH THE UPPER BODY, INSTEAD OF FROM BELOW THE BELT"

He said that many decades ago, what those science guys said

Imagine that
That Bertholy could be so correct when the science didn't exist but so many now are not even with the science as a reference.

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 23rd, 2009, 3:34 am #44

doesn't really prove either viewpoint. He could have given the club
a hell of a fling with his right arm before he let go for instance.

Kinda like you throw a ball?
given the position it is highly unlikely that there was much of a push from the trail arm at impact. Rather 'the car' (club) is going faster than the hand and 'pulling away'. This picture is very consistent with the results of a study who's goal was specifically to find the 'hit' from the trail arm that many golf instructors described. They did not find it at least not as described

What they did find was that pressure on the trail hand for pros peaked at about '6/100s' (when the trail elbow is bent at the elbow) and went to near zero at impact and was zero apx one video frame after impact - kind of like the picture. This trail hand pressure profile is very consistent with my favorite clip of Hogan:



Peter
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Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 4:38 am

January 23rd, 2009, 3:45 am #45

published science is characterized as 'good' or 'bad' based on whether or not it confirms or disproves a personal theory there is no additional information that would eliminate the "lever" crowd because any that would will just be characterized as 'bad'.

However for grins:

'Biomechanical Analysis of Professional Golfer's Swing: Hidemichi Tanaka' - Okuda, Armstrong, Tsunezumi, Yoshikii

CONCLUSION - This study provided an examination of selected biomechanical factors associated with successful long driving by an individual with small body mass. The primary factors appear to be 1)delayed, but rapid transfer of body weight from the rear foot to the front foot, 2)a pattern of muscle activation that is consistent with a movement sequence of of proximal to distal segments, 3)initiation of hip rotation before the club reaches the top of the swing, 4)involvement of exxentric contraction of the trunk muscle to initiate the downswing sequence.

'Comparison of Kinematic Sequence Parameters between Amateur and Professional Golfers' - Cheetham, Rose, Hinrichs, Neal, Mottram, Hurrion, Vint

A representative swing from each of 19 amateurs and 19 pros was captured using three-dimensional (3-D) motion analysis techniques. Eighteen key kinematic sequence performance variables that occur during the downswing were computed from the data. Student t-tests were used to compare the group means for each parameter with an experiment-wise level of significance set at p<0.2, and a correspoinding test-wise significance of p<0.011.<br>

...

It was also found that the peaking order of the body segment speeds, determined from the mean timing variables, was pelvis, thorax, then arm wheras for amateurs it was pelvis, arm, then thorax.


BTW - the "other" had a different opinion previously about the source of force and published same. That is one of those things that happen when it is opinion vs data.

While rolling might happen with a bent trail arm it did not for Hogan until well after impact.

Peter
advancement in science come from "personal theories"??
or are we to assume all scince that is published is completely unassailable. I do concede that proving percentage of trail arm power does not have a large amount of scientific backing ---- trail arms sure do come in handy ,though!!
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Joined: July 12th, 2001, 12:35 am

January 23rd, 2009, 4:00 am #46

doesn't really prove either viewpoint. He could have given the club
a hell of a fling with his right arm before he let go for instance.

Kinda like you throw a ball?
WHen you skip a rock, you release the rock.



Todd
Last edited by Tgraves on January 23rd, 2009, 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 23rd, 2009, 4:15 am #47

it is not powered by the muscles in the arm - at least not if you want it to skip

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 23rd, 2009, 4:26 am #48

advancement in science come from "personal theories"??
or are we to assume all scince that is published is completely unassailable. I do concede that proving percentage of trail arm power does not have a large amount of scientific backing ---- trail arms sure do come in handy ,though!!
and then those personal theories need to be backed up by data. There is no data I've seen in any published study that backs up the theory that most of the power comes from the trail arm. In fact one study that was specifically goaled to find the 'hit' from the trail arm did not find it with skilled golfers (at least not the way golf instructors described it).

BTW - In science most theories are developed understanding the existing data and are unlikely to pass peer review unless they are consistent with the relevant developed data - Einstein's theory of relativity is completely consistent with Newtonian mechanics at non-relativistic velocities. Even so Einstein's theory of relativity did not 'make the big time' until it was proved experimentally (and ocntinues to be proved as for example the corrections that need to be made in the GPS system due to the relative velocity of the satellites).

Peter
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

January 23rd, 2009, 1:04 pm #49

given the position it is highly unlikely that there was much of a push from the trail arm at impact. Rather 'the car' (club) is going faster than the hand and 'pulling away'. This picture is very consistent with the results of a study who's goal was specifically to find the 'hit' from the trail arm that many golf instructors described. They did not find it at least not as described

What they did find was that pressure on the trail hand for pros peaked at about '6/100s' (when the trail elbow is bent at the elbow) and went to near zero at impact and was zero apx one video frame after impact - kind of like the picture. This trail hand pressure profile is very consistent with my favorite clip of Hogan:



Peter
A right hook has no right arm power?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg3t5Dw4HjE
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 23rd, 2009, 1:56 pm #50

unless the right hook is done without the elbow ever leaving the trail side as is shown with Hogan in the clip I posted.



You might also have shown a clip of shotput where you'll find a significant contribution from the muscles of the arm. But how far would the shot go if the athlete did not use their legs and or rotate their torsos. How much weight would this athlete be able to handle wihthout using their legs even as the triceps is an important factor.



As I said in another post on this topic you can choose to swing in a way that uses the trail arm triceps as a power source but you would not be swinging like 'skilled' golfers in numerous studies and you would be swinging in a way that is consistent with slower clubhead speeds at impact in numerous studies.

BTW - The right hook as demonstrated is not using muscles in the arm to provide speed. The speed comes from torso rotation (that starts with the legs) and muscles in the torso like the pecs that manipulate the upper arm.



Peter
Last edited by sagf_moderator on January 23rd, 2009, 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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