Forward lean / Spine angle - Peter, others

Forward lean / Spine angle - Peter, others

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

January 31st, 2011, 12:04 pm #1

Peter, you have mentioned several times that pros have more forward lean than amateurs and that there was a study that bore this out. Could you please reference that study or point to the post?

I know the degree of bend varies from pro to pro based on height, physique, etc., but would you say that this forward lean is an absolute - in the same way dog's hind leg or the Vital / Master move is? You know something we see in all great swings without exception?

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 1st, 2011, 2:45 pm #2

You can find the study here (a big thanks to Google for making the proceedings public).

There is a large variation in forward bend among tour pros but you will notice that the amateurs measured in the study have more forward bend than I've seen of the 'pre-improvement' pictures of participants here. The significant difference is in bending to the side at top of swing (slantidicular) and impact.

I think there is a minimum forward bend/posture/space needed and that is what's required to get to the ball with the trail forearm aligned with the club (viewed parallel to the target line) when the trail elbow is in front of the trail hip and the club has not passed alignment with the lead arm (viewed perpendicular to the target line).

Peter
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

February 1st, 2011, 4:37 pm #3





Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: February 10th, 2010, 12:54 am

February 1st, 2011, 5:42 pm #4

You can find the study here (a big thanks to Google for making the proceedings public).

There is a large variation in forward bend among tour pros but you will notice that the amateurs measured in the study have more forward bend than I've seen of the 'pre-improvement' pictures of participants here. The significant difference is in bending to the side at top of swing (slantidicular) and impact.

I think there is a minimum forward bend/posture/space needed and that is what's required to get to the ball with the trail forearm aligned with the club (viewed parallel to the target line) when the trail elbow is in front of the trail hip and the club has not passed alignment with the lead arm (viewed perpendicular to the target line).

Peter
This past Saturday I went to a golf expo near my house...it was the near the end of the show and my buddy and I saw there was nobody in line to get "free lessons" from pros from an academy not too far away. I decided to hit a few balls for him...and to see his reaction to my single axis set-up. He asked me about my game...I told him I'm in my 3rd year of golf and set-up single axis..I didn't mention Bertholy/Moe/etc., but I did say I'm really trying to build the absolute fundamentals into my swing...he looked at me a bit funny on this one. To my surprise he liked my set-up and my swing......but he pointed out the following. I should also mention I've hit balls only once since the end of October....so I was a bit rusty.

1) The single axis set-up was fine, he even commented I had a very fundamentally sound grip..but I was not leaning over enough(I was hitting a 7-iron). He said it looked like I could use more space.

2) I brought the club inside way too quickly...which is funny because I thought I was NOT doing this. He had me working on coming more straight back in the backswing. I'll have to video this to see the difference...

3) But the biggest thing he stressed was my club fitting. He asked what clubs I play and if I had them fit...which unfortunately I did not. He stated that with my single axis set-up my clubs are probably not fit correctly...he also gave me the name of a local place that uses Trackman, and suggested I try to get fitted or get my clubs adjusted before golf season starts up.

So has anyone here found this to be true about club fitting for a single axis set-up?
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

February 2nd, 2011, 5:22 pm #5

Peter, you have mentioned several times that pros have more forward lean than amateurs and that there was a study that bore this out. Could you please reference that study or point to the post?

I know the degree of bend varies from pro to pro based on height, physique, etc., but would you say that this forward lean is an absolute - in the same way dog's hind leg or the Vital / Master move is? You know something we see in all great swings without exception?

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
That has I improve this aspect, center face hits happen much more often (driver), but my clubhead speed has decreased some. It's probably a wash because I will hit thje ball farther by hitting the sweet spot. I can't wait get outside and hit some irons and see how they are flying and also shoot some video.

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 2nd, 2011, 5:34 pm #6

the importance of forward bend & posture on chip/pitch shots using my 2.5 drill swing. If I was not bent forward enough and/or I did not bend from the legs (e.g. tilt my pelvis-stick my bu-t out) there was not enough space to have my trail arm aligned with the club and on the ball at impact. This led to less than pure shot even on simple pitches. The 'feel' of the correct position (I should get around to taking pictures) is that I'm bent forward enough that the line of the club and my trail arm is perpendicular to my forward leaning torso.

Peter
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

February 2nd, 2011, 5:59 pm #7

This past Saturday I went to a golf expo near my house...it was the near the end of the show and my buddy and I saw there was nobody in line to get "free lessons" from pros from an academy not too far away. I decided to hit a few balls for him...and to see his reaction to my single axis set-up. He asked me about my game...I told him I'm in my 3rd year of golf and set-up single axis..I didn't mention Bertholy/Moe/etc., but I did say I'm really trying to build the absolute fundamentals into my swing...he looked at me a bit funny on this one. To my surprise he liked my set-up and my swing......but he pointed out the following. I should also mention I've hit balls only once since the end of October....so I was a bit rusty.

1) The single axis set-up was fine, he even commented I had a very fundamentally sound grip..but I was not leaning over enough(I was hitting a 7-iron). He said it looked like I could use more space.

2) I brought the club inside way too quickly...which is funny because I thought I was NOT doing this. He had me working on coming more straight back in the backswing. I'll have to video this to see the difference...

3) But the biggest thing he stressed was my club fitting. He asked what clubs I play and if I had them fit...which unfortunately I did not. He stated that with my single axis set-up my clubs are probably not fit correctly...he also gave me the name of a local place that uses Trackman, and suggested I try to get fitted or get my clubs adjusted before golf season starts up.

So has anyone here found this to be true about club fitting for a single axis set-up?
You could get your lie angle checked. If you're using the Natural Golf method of standing far from the ball and stretching your arms out (ala Moe) then your clubs might need a flatter lie angle. However, given that you have an upright spine angle, I doubt that this is an issue for you.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to hit your clubs off of a lie angle board and have them bent if necessary. However, if you are only 3 years into golf, you are probably inconsistent enough that this won't matter much. This is the trouble with teaching pro's. They assume that what's important for their game is also important for their students. Bad assumption! Hopefully he didn't also talk you into buying expensive clubs or Pro V1 balls.

Spend the time to get some consistency in your game before putting a lot of money or energy into your equipment. That being said, it would be important to find your driver swing speed. Most AM's have a swing speed well south of 100mph. If so, a 15* driver with senior shafts might be the single best piece of equipment to help your game at this stage.
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gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

February 3rd, 2011, 2:39 am #8

Peter, you have mentioned several times that pros have more forward lean than amateurs and that there was a study that bore this out. Could you please reference that study or point to the post?

I know the degree of bend varies from pro to pro based on height, physique, etc., but would you say that this forward lean is an absolute - in the same way dog's hind leg or the Vital / Master move is? You know something we see in all great swings without exception?

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Just recently I overheard a nationwide pro giving a quick lesson to a golfer on the driving range and that is exactly what he told the golfer. To bend over more from the waist so that he would have more room to swing. Maybe that is the one secret that we are all looking for?

Stan
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 3rd, 2011, 3:15 am #9

necessary but not sufficient. You need to do more than just bend forward enough but if you don't bend forward enough it'll be very difficult to get to a good impact position.

Peter
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

February 3rd, 2011, 5:37 am #10

Just recently I overheard a nationwide pro giving a quick lesson to a golfer on the driving range and that is exactly what he told the golfer. To bend over more from the waist so that he would have more room to swing. Maybe that is the one secret that we are all looking for?

Stan
In my experience the bend from the hips needs to be done correctly or there will be problems. I was taught an excessive bend from the hips with only a slight knee bend years ago and it hurt my lower back a lot especially during the lessons. I think now that my weight was probably too far out on my toes and that is what seems to be hard on my back.

Anyway I think that the most common mistake is what Bertholy called the hit impulse. Get the ball down there in a pressure situation and most folks who play golf are overcome by the hit impulse usually with less then desirable results.

Regards, Herbert
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