Flying the line...

Flying the line...

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

February 15th, 2010, 10:37 pm #1

Allen turned me on to this guy, and it has made for some interesting private dialogue. I was wondering if others would read his articles and comment. I am particularly interested in Kelvins thoughts about the Chi line, and the spine as the engine. Here's the link to the chi line article:

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/h ... -axis.html

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

February 16th, 2010, 1:27 am #2

with Bonds, Griffey, Tome and the like.
Not sure about golf. Check out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ6o5DCr ... re=channel
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

February 16th, 2010, 5:52 am #3

Allen turned me on to this guy, and it has made for some interesting private dialogue. I was wondering if others would read his articles and comment. I am particularly interested in Kelvins thoughts about the Chi line, and the spine as the engine. Here's the link to the chi line article:

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/h ... -axis.html

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Simple Swing is the chi line to perfection. Also I think very much the SOMAX method.
I am not really sure if it makes all that much difference in fact though??? Hmmm, what about this swing:


Do you think that there really anything to this is or is it just a bit of wishful thinking on the authors part? Maybe Peter can apply his huge brain to the subject?

As for my own swing I tend to shift my hips way forward during the downswing so I guess that I will try to turn my hips in place and see what happens. Oh goody, more experimenting!

Regards, Herbert

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 16th, 2010, 2:35 pm #4

Allen turned me on to this guy, and it has made for some interesting private dialogue. I was wondering if others would read his articles and comment. I am particularly interested in Kelvins thoughts about the Chi line, and the spine as the engine. Here's the link to the chi line article:

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/h ... -axis.html

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
The analysis makes an assumption that only one axis of rotation is important. It makes an assumption that continued rapid rotation is optimum. It also makes the assumption that deceleration of torso rotation results in an arm (powered) swing. None of these points is correct.

It has been shown in many studies that optimum performance involves a deceleration of hips and torso rotation prior to impact and that is not only for golf but also for hitters, pitchers, javelin throwers... The reason for the braced lead leg (wether bent or straight) is to arrest the body movement freeing that energy for the implement. When the proper sequence of events is accomplished the club can freewheel through impact creating greater angular speed at the wrist greater than muscle contraction can accomplish (so it is not arm powered).

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:44 pm

February 16th, 2010, 3:06 pm #5

Allen turned me on to this guy, and it has made for some interesting private dialogue. I was wondering if others would read his articles and comment. I am particularly interested in Kelvins thoughts about the Chi line, and the spine as the engine. Here's the link to the chi line article:

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/h ... -axis.html

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Kevin i guess i would like to know what your take is on it ?

I wonder what his swing trainer looks like ? Is it like the swing jacket that was around years back ?

I am not sure i really understand what the trainer could do really either. If the pro's have a hard time getting into what he says is ideal i don't know how us hackers could ever do it .
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

February 16th, 2010, 8:15 pm #6

The analysis makes an assumption that only one axis of rotation is important. It makes an assumption that continued rapid rotation is optimum. It also makes the assumption that deceleration of torso rotation results in an arm (powered) swing. None of these points is correct.

It has been shown in many studies that optimum performance involves a deceleration of hips and torso rotation prior to impact and that is not only for golf but also for hitters, pitchers, javelin throwers... The reason for the braced lead leg (wether bent or straight) is to arrest the body movement freeing that energy for the implement. When the proper sequence of events is accomplished the club can freewheel through impact creating greater angular speed at the wrist greater than muscle contraction can accomplish (so it is not arm powered).

Peter
I think that there may well be a way to apply this principle properly!

The thing to do would be to make some special shoes that would allow one to spin like an ice skater. Then it would simply be a matter of pulling the arms and club in to spin faster and faster until just the right moment when the arms and club would be released out to hit the ball into orbit!

Hmmmm, I am not sure that one could spin successfully on a tilted axis?

Regards, Herbert
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

February 16th, 2010, 8:23 pm #7

Kevin i guess i would like to know what your take is on it ?

I wonder what his swing trainer looks like ? Is it like the swing jacket that was around years back ?

I am not sure i really understand what the trainer could do really either. If the pro's have a hard time getting into what he says is ideal i don't know how us hackers could ever do it .
I told Allen the guy is a great salesman....

The stuff he says "makes sense, and sounds good", but I am not sure how far to go with some of it. For example he talks about the SSC effect and that it is a bad thing to contract the trail bicep cause it will cause a pre-mature release. He also says that training slow with weighted clubs is not a good thing...."if you train for slow you'll be slow". Pretty much throws out most everything I have been doing for the last 7 years! DOH!

I've added lots of speed and improved my swing and contact by swinging heavy pipes, clubs and practicing the correct moves slowly first. I see the same people on the range year after year swinging fast and never getting better. I have a buddy that can break the 135mph barrier with my speed stik but hits a huge slice and has to "play his fade" just to stay on the course.

I do like his analogy of the figure skater spinning fast by keeping her arms in, and slowing down as they move away - Bertholy uses the same analogy in his writing

I like his emphasis of a body oriented rotation type action and his disdain for hitting with your arms and hands. Lots of what he talks about you find in Bertholy.

I will probably buy a speed chain and train with it once the weather breaks. Regarding that, I think if a person doesn't first have a good basic swing built, the speed chain may help him swing faster by developing "fast twitch muscles", but if his technique is wrong, he still won't hit it well.

The thing is I am not an "expert" in bio-mechanics....so I could fall for anything this guy says if he says it just right. I am outa time to take a lot of it to "the lab" and see what really works, but perhaps next winter!





Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

February 16th, 2010, 11:03 pm #8

The analysis makes an assumption that only one axis of rotation is important. It makes an assumption that continued rapid rotation is optimum. It also makes the assumption that deceleration of torso rotation results in an arm (powered) swing. None of these points is correct.

It has been shown in many studies that optimum performance involves a deceleration of hips and torso rotation prior to impact and that is not only for golf but also for hitters, pitchers, javelin throwers... The reason for the braced lead leg (wether bent or straight) is to arrest the body movement freeing that energy for the implement. When the proper sequence of events is accomplished the club can freewheel through impact creating greater angular speed at the wrist greater than muscle contraction can accomplish (so it is not arm powered).

Peter
is what I have practiced since reading Bertholy commented that it promotes cleaner contact, and is what he prefers his students to do. I also have read here many times that it is an IMA distinctive, and of course Moe does this.

Always been good enough for me to know that...but what is the idea behind keeping the lead knee flex and why for an IMA type swing AND a Bertholy action is this preferred?

I know weird huh, I actually want to know why something works!



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

February 17th, 2010, 12:53 am #9

Keeping the lead knee flexed along with a 'supple' lead leg where the lead foot stays 'anchored' and your lead calf does not flex (per Scott) will change the pivot point of your torso to your lead hip vs body center or spine. Effective your lead hip will stay in place and your trail hip will rotate around vs lead hip rotating away from the target while lead hip rotates towards it. If you don't do this you will likely wind up with a pulled shot and 'rifle barrel' will be pointed to much to the inside unless you loose your lead arm support.

This was very much the style through the 40s and 50s and started changing in the 60s and 70s. Now it's much more common on full power shots to snap the lead leg straight. This can make more energy available by 'freezing' movement of the lead leg (harder to do with flex there). This is why you tend to see this more with drives. For an interesting analysis of a pro golfer on this specific point look for 'The Biomechanics of Power Golf' which is a video done by Gideon Ariel (famous in the optimization of performance for Olympic athletes through biomechanical analysis).

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:44 pm

February 17th, 2010, 1:10 am #10

I told Allen the guy is a great salesman....

The stuff he says "makes sense, and sounds good", but I am not sure how far to go with some of it. For example he talks about the SSC effect and that it is a bad thing to contract the trail bicep cause it will cause a pre-mature release. He also says that training slow with weighted clubs is not a good thing...."if you train for slow you'll be slow". Pretty much throws out most everything I have been doing for the last 7 years! DOH!

I've added lots of speed and improved my swing and contact by swinging heavy pipes, clubs and practicing the correct moves slowly first. I see the same people on the range year after year swinging fast and never getting better. I have a buddy that can break the 135mph barrier with my speed stik but hits a huge slice and has to "play his fade" just to stay on the course.

I do like his analogy of the figure skater spinning fast by keeping her arms in, and slowing down as they move away - Bertholy uses the same analogy in his writing

I like his emphasis of a body oriented rotation type action and his disdain for hitting with your arms and hands. Lots of what he talks about you find in Bertholy.

I will probably buy a speed chain and train with it once the weather breaks. Regarding that, I think if a person doesn't first have a good basic swing built, the speed chain may help him swing faster by developing "fast twitch muscles", but if his technique is wrong, he still won't hit it well.

The thing is I am not an "expert" in bio-mechanics....so I could fall for anything this guy says if he says it just right. I am outa time to take a lot of it to "the lab" and see what really works, but perhaps next winter!





Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Did you see that spped chain on his site?

Wow it looks like some kind of S+M thing,nothing like I expected !
Quote
Like
Share