Face the ball at impact?

Face the ball at impact?

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

December 17th, 2010, 6:43 am #1

I think that the measure of shoulder turn discussed in the long thread is rather difficult considering that the shoulders can move in a lot of different directions. There does not seem to be a definition of shoulder position at impact that I like; so far anyway. I do think that shoulder turn is being looked at from the wrong perspective in some cases. Shoulder turn to me is around the spine meaning that the plane that should be measured is not parallel to the ground.

Here are few pics of Moe:


Did Moe 'face the ball at impact'?

It is my opinion that telling most average golfers to 'face the ball' at impact will not result in a position at impact that matches Moe's. To me Moe is cranked around as far as he can get at impact considering the restraints of his body type, setup and his intention to keep the trail foot on the ground.

As for my swing I for the last number of years have trained myself to keep my trail foot on the ground through impact. I am now thinking that is a mistake. When I get up on my toe with the knee kicked in a bit I am lot more comfortable and my back feels better. It also seems easier to maintain the spine angle through impact. LOL I am in the early stages of this one so we shall see. I did get this training from a couple of pros that I had lessons with many years ago. One pro gave me some drills to achieve this impact position in order to overcome a tendency to pull hook at that time. His comment was that my lower body was following my swing instead of leading it.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

December 17th, 2010, 12:08 pm #2

like you are thinking on the right track!

I fought for years to get rid of the fundamental "face the ball at impact" with NG. They finally did somewhat after I departed.

Shoulder turn means to most people actually upper torso turn. If you asked most what shoulder turn is they would demonstrate the upper body turning away and through, while the shoulders are going along for the ride.

All top golfers today that I have seen have their hips and upper body open relative to the target line at impact. Why would anybody want to do it differently? I think it is even much healthier for the body to do it that way.

The turning open even will help you accomplish the bent trail arm at impact as the trail shoulder will be closer to the ball at impact if the upper torso has turned open. Hurrah!!!

Ham
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

December 17th, 2010, 2:40 pm #3

I do not believe that shoulder position at impact has changed for pros in the last 100 years or more as far as being 'more open'. I think that if you measured a pro at setup using the rotation around the spine you would find that the pro is open by a lot.

To illustrate my thinking I have provided a pic of the Model Pro at setup. I have drawn lines to try to indicate the rotation of the shoulders relative to the spine. It looks like the shoulders are open by 20 or 30 degrees maybe more if measured on the basis of rotation around the spine? Please note that there is a problem with perspective from this camera angle which I think would tend to make the angle look more acute then it actually is.


Regards, Herbert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 17th, 2010, 3:48 pm #4

That looks to me like the trail shoulder is lower than the lead and the line is 20-30 deg away from horizontal. That is not relative to the target line and that relationship defines 'open' and 'closed'.

Peter
Last edited by sagf_moderator on December 17th, 2010, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 17th, 2010, 4:02 pm #5

I think that the measure of shoulder turn discussed in the long thread is rather difficult considering that the shoulders can move in a lot of different directions. There does not seem to be a definition of shoulder position at impact that I like; so far anyway. I do think that shoulder turn is being looked at from the wrong perspective in some cases. Shoulder turn to me is around the spine meaning that the plane that should be measured is not parallel to the ground.

Here are few pics of Moe:


Did Moe 'face the ball at impact'?

It is my opinion that telling most average golfers to 'face the ball' at impact will not result in a position at impact that matches Moe's. To me Moe is cranked around as far as he can get at impact considering the restraints of his body type, setup and his intention to keep the trail foot on the ground.

As for my swing I for the last number of years have trained myself to keep my trail foot on the ground through impact. I am now thinking that is a mistake. When I get up on my toe with the knee kicked in a bit I am lot more comfortable and my back feels better. It also seems easier to maintain the spine angle through impact. LOL I am in the early stages of this one so we shall see. I did get this training from a couple of pros that I had lessons with many years ago. One pro gave me some drills to achieve this impact position in order to overcome a tendency to pull hook at that time. His comment was that my lower body was following my swing instead of leading it.

Regards, Herbert
Shoulders can move in a lot of directions but there is certainly no problem with defining where each shoulder is (though you may not like the result). In fact LTOBG very specifically uses shoulders and not upper torso and notes the independent movement of the shoulders so you could not have followed NG's direction with any other definition.

It is fine to measure shoulder turn in a plane perpendicular to the thoracic spine (remember the spine is curved and jointed so you either have to pick a spinal section or define a single spinal axis) but:

1) 'Open' or 'closed' are terms relative to the target line so the plane for that relationship is horizontal by definition

2) The shoulder line will still not necessarily represent the long axis of the upper torso

Moe is not 'cranked around' as far as he can get given Moe's statements in an interview. He said that he could hit the ball further but that the distance came at the cost of accuracy and then gestured showing more shoulder rotation and the club coming away from the target. Moe wanted the club to stay in a narrow lane pointed at the target in follow through.

Scott (IMA) has always said that forcing you trail heel to stay on the ground through impact could lead to back problems. In IMA the direction was that your trail foot needed to roll onto the inside edge (as you see Moe doing in your second photo) before the heel came up. To do this requires a specific sequence of lateral shift and hip rotation which is desired.

Peter
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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

December 17th, 2010, 4:10 pm #6

I do not believe that shoulder position at impact has changed for pros in the last 100 years or more as far as being 'more open'. I think that if you measured a pro at setup using the rotation around the spine you would find that the pro is open by a lot.

To illustrate my thinking I have provided a pic of the Model Pro at setup. I have drawn lines to try to indicate the rotation of the shoulders relative to the spine. It looks like the shoulders are open by 20 or 30 degrees maybe more if measured on the basis of rotation around the spine? Please note that there is a problem with perspective from this camera angle which I think would tend to make the angle look more acute then it actually is.


Regards, Herbert
Pros measured by Dr. Neal have the hips on average 4° open at address, and the upper body 8.5° open at address. The average upper body (shoulders) tilt away from the target is 10°.

On average the pros measured by Dr. Neal have both the hips and upper body 40° Open at impact. This does not mean the same player has exactly hips and upper body the same amount open at impact, just that the average of all measured comes out to that.

I was hips 46° open and Upper body 42° open at impact. If you had asked me before the test to guess I would have said hips 30° and upper body square.

Ham



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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 17th, 2010, 6:12 pm #7

The 'average of all measured' or the average of the 75% that were within the corridor?

Peter
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

December 17th, 2010, 6:25 pm #8

I do not believe that shoulder position at impact has changed for pros in the last 100 years or more as far as being 'more open'. I think that if you measured a pro at setup using the rotation around the spine you would find that the pro is open by a lot.

To illustrate my thinking I have provided a pic of the Model Pro at setup. I have drawn lines to try to indicate the rotation of the shoulders relative to the spine. It looks like the shoulders are open by 20 or 30 degrees maybe more if measured on the basis of rotation around the spine? Please note that there is a problem with perspective from this camera angle which I think would tend to make the angle look more acute then it actually is.


Regards, Herbert

Note that a line apx perpendicular to your shoulder line does not align with the torso.

Peter
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

December 17th, 2010, 6:57 pm #9

I think that the measure of shoulder turn discussed in the long thread is rather difficult considering that the shoulders can move in a lot of different directions. There does not seem to be a definition of shoulder position at impact that I like; so far anyway. I do think that shoulder turn is being looked at from the wrong perspective in some cases. Shoulder turn to me is around the spine meaning that the plane that should be measured is not parallel to the ground.

Here are few pics of Moe:


Did Moe 'face the ball at impact'?

It is my opinion that telling most average golfers to 'face the ball' at impact will not result in a position at impact that matches Moe's. To me Moe is cranked around as far as he can get at impact considering the restraints of his body type, setup and his intention to keep the trail foot on the ground.

As for my swing I for the last number of years have trained myself to keep my trail foot on the ground through impact. I am now thinking that is a mistake. When I get up on my toe with the knee kicked in a bit I am lot more comfortable and my back feels better. It also seems easier to maintain the spine angle through impact. LOL I am in the early stages of this one so we shall see. I did get this training from a couple of pros that I had lessons with many years ago. One pro gave me some drills to achieve this impact position in order to overcome a tendency to pull hook at that time. His comment was that my lower body was following my swing instead of leading it.

Regards, Herbert
Or perhaps hope is that the work of Dr. Mann and Dr Neal can be reconciled. My original attempt at drawing lines to indicate the angle was somewhat flawed as pointed out by Peter and Ham. In that vein here is a look at the model from a couple of views. The model seems fairly precise so it should be possible to discern whether the model of Dr. Mann matches the research of Dr. Neal? It seems to me that is an important question here.

In order to know we would need to know what the upper torso angle would be measured to be by Dr. Neal. Would the measurement be in line with his corridors? Also it would be interesting to know what Peter might measure as shoulder angle relative to the target line...


Regards, Herbert
edit for speeeleinng error...
Last edited by gHerbert on December 17th, 2010, 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

December 17th, 2010, 7:06 pm #10

Shoulders can move in a lot of directions but there is certainly no problem with defining where each shoulder is (though you may not like the result). In fact LTOBG very specifically uses shoulders and not upper torso and notes the independent movement of the shoulders so you could not have followed NG's direction with any other definition.

It is fine to measure shoulder turn in a plane perpendicular to the thoracic spine (remember the spine is curved and jointed so you either have to pick a spinal section or define a single spinal axis) but:

1) 'Open' or 'closed' are terms relative to the target line so the plane for that relationship is horizontal by definition

2) The shoulder line will still not necessarily represent the long axis of the upper torso

Moe is not 'cranked around' as far as he can get given Moe's statements in an interview. He said that he could hit the ball further but that the distance came at the cost of accuracy and then gestured showing more shoulder rotation and the club coming away from the target. Moe wanted the club to stay in a narrow lane pointed at the target in follow through.

Scott (IMA) has always said that forcing you trail heel to stay on the ground through impact could lead to back problems. In IMA the direction was that your trail foot needed to roll onto the inside edge (as you see Moe doing in your second photo) before the heel came up. To do this requires a specific sequence of lateral shift and hip rotation which is desired.

Peter
No I don't have an interest in this fight so I will 'like' the result...

Hmmm, it may be true that Moe was not be cranked around as far as he could be...

But he was cranked around a heckuva lot further then at least one forum member is when he tries to face the ball or even just tries to keep his trail heel on the ground at impact.

I believe that the advice to 'face the ball at impact' is very bad for most any am who tries to apply it. What do you think?

Regards, Herbert

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