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If this is the case then directing people to have their shoulders 25-50 deg open to the target (horizontal plane) is totally incorrect.First I do not believe Dr. Neal and Dr. Mann are measuring the same thing. If you look closely at the swing analysis report that Ham referenced you will notice that 'Setup Foundations' (address) has a perspective that is pretty clearly vertically above the golfer. Dr. Mann has that same perspective for address and impact but the referenced report has a very different perspective for downswing/impact. You'll also notice that the report does not have the target line indicator (the black line) for impact that it has for setup. Add to this that the technology of the device is that it will measure rotation along its axis and there is a lot of evidence that shoulder rotation at impact for Dr. Neal is on the tilted axis of the upper torso and not relative to a horizontal plane (which as you noted will vary with torso lean).
If this is the case then directing people to have their shoulders 25-50 deg open to the target (horizontal plane) is totally incorrect.
I think when a golfer hears 'shoulder rotation' and 'open' they think of the horizontal plane and the target. I think a golfer hearing 'trunk rotation' is more likely to ask what is meant as well as to think of it on the tilted plane of the torso. The term 'open' in my opinion is still problematic; better to say 'past level' I think.
the question as to why you answered with measurements for the shoulders when upper torso was requested. Do you have no measurement for the upper torso at impact from Dr. Mann? Is that why you answered with shoulders instead of torso, or were you confused due to cold weather??gets confusing when someone chooses to use one term and then change it when called out that they are incorrect. I will give it to you that you explained that Dr. Neal did not measure shoulder turn nearly 2 hours before asking the question though in a separate part of the thread
Note that my reference to an earlier post about Dr. Mann has no ambiguity about what was measured as open.
Dr. Neal....and I am not posting about an "extreme" forward bend, but I see again how shoulders vs. torso can cause problems in understanding movement.you got a response from Dr. Neal
Yes - As Herbert's example (of an extreme forward bend) showed it's possible to be 0 Deg open to the target line with any degree of shoulder rotation with sufficient forward bend. Any degree of forward bend means that a measurement done on the torso axis (actually at the level of the shoulder blades based on the photo of the device - since the torso bends that might not be the axis at other points) is not accurate relative to the target line. That is even without the ability of the shoulders to move independent of the torso.
This aspect of geometry is critical to certain swings that emphasize forward bend and a more vertical plane to create greater consistency/accuracy.
composite pro can provide a number of measurements that are not published in his book including torso rotation.the question as to why you answered with measurements for the shoulders when upper torso was requested. Do you have no measurement for the upper torso at impact from Dr. Mann? Is that why you answered with shoulders instead of torso, or were you confused due to cold weather??
Feel free to carry on individual discussion in new threads.I think that the measure of shoulder turn discussed in the long thread is rather difficult considering that the shoulders can move in a lot of different directions. There does not seem to be a definition of shoulder position at impact that I like; so far anyway. I do think that shoulder turn is being looked at from the wrong perspective in some cases. Shoulder turn to me is around the spine meaning that the plane that should be measured is not parallel to the ground.
Here are few pics of Moe:
Did Moe 'face the ball at impact'?
It is my opinion that telling most average golfers to 'face the ball' at impact will not result in a position at impact that matches Moe's. To me Moe is cranked around as far as he can get at impact considering the restraints of his body type, setup and his intention to keep the trail foot on the ground.
As for my swing I for the last number of years have trained myself to keep my trail foot on the ground through impact. I am now thinking that is a mistake. When I get up on my toe with the knee kicked in a bit I am lot more comfortable and my back feels better. It also seems easier to maintain the spine angle through impact. LOL I am in the early stages of this one so we shall see. I did get this training from a couple of pros that I had lessons with many years ago. One pro gave me some drills to achieve this impact position in order to overcome a tendency to pull hook at that time. His comment was that my lower body was following my swing instead of leading it.