Delayed Release???

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am
Is there more then one way to achieve a delayed release? Here is a nice description by Allen of how to achieve the late hit:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/me ... ed+release+...

Sounds good! However there may be another way as indicated by the sequence photos of my hinged club swing. The hinged club is free to hinge or un-hinge on its own. There is no hi impulse or retention here! Yet the late hit is present:

The trick here would be to have a free hinge in the wrists I think. I would like to note also that I had a very hard time getting the hinged club to release enough to get to impact with the clubhead far enough forward to have normal loft. I tended to get to impact with the clubhead lagging too far behind the hands.

Regards, Herbert

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am
If you had a free hinge of the wrist however (vs 'wrists') you could get closer to the positions of your hinged club. This was an interesting thing I found a while back while studying one armed golfers (because the physics indicated a free hinge should get better results than the majority of ams). I came to the conclusion from that study that the problem is the trail arm (before I read Berthly but the same conclusion). The problem is that gravity AND swing forces (not to mention 'hit impulse)tend to straighten the trail arm sooner than it should and this opens the angle between lead arm and club more than would be the case if only the lead hand were on it. If you train your trail arm to keep that bend (as the Bertholy exercises do) it can effectively 'get out of the way' and allow you to get the performance you'd get with a single connection and a free hinge. This would be a huge improvement for most much less the ability to actually supply a couple of ounces of force to delay release somewhat beyond what a free hinge would accomplish.

Consider that John Daley warms up by swinging one handed and says he want to get tha same feel when both hands are on the club. In other words he wants the 'feel' of the trail hand not influencing the swing.

When I first came up with 'Experiment #1' it seemed from the effort I expended to keep the angle that the forces on my trail arm were huge. Then I saw John McLean do a little drill where he held the club between thumb and index finger of the trail hand and practiced moving down to club parallel to the ground with an apx 90 deg angle between lead arm and club. A lot of force was not really required. It just seemed that way because I was fighting myself and my desire/training to 'hit' with my trail arm. There is really very little effort relative to biceps strength for most, required to keep their trail hand 'out of the way'. Mainly you just need to overcome the action of trying to straighten and then the bit extra to overcome gravity & momentum. Not easy to do consciously in a swing and even harder unconsciously for most but because of training/psychology vs lack of physical strength/coordination.

Once I went to a gym with a friend who was into serious bodybuilding at the time. After going through a workout with him I could not straighten my arms for days as a result of the various biceps exercises. This could be a useful thing for golf

Peter

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am
Is there more then one way to achieve a delayed release? Here is a nice description by Allen of how to achieve the late hit:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/me ... ed+release+...

Sounds good! However there may be another way as indicated by the sequence photos of my hinged club swing. The hinged club is free to hinge or un-hinge on its own. There is no hi impulse or retention here! Yet the late hit is present:

The trick here would be to have a free hinge in the wrists I think. I would like to note also that I had a very hard time getting the hinged club to release enough to get to impact with the clubhead far enough forward to have normal loft. I tended to get to impact with the clubhead lagging too far behind the hands.

Regards, Herbert

Peter

Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm
If you had a free hinge of the wrist however (vs 'wrists') you could get closer to the positions of your hinged club. This was an interesting thing I found a while back while studying one armed golfers (because the physics indicated a free hinge should get better results than the majority of ams). I came to the conclusion from that study that the problem is the trail arm (before I read Berthly but the same conclusion). The problem is that gravity AND swing forces (not to mention 'hit impulse)tend to straighten the trail arm sooner than it should and this opens the angle between lead arm and club more than would be the case if only the lead hand were on it. If you train your trail arm to keep that bend (as the Bertholy exercises do) it can effectively 'get out of the way' and allow you to get the performance you'd get with a single connection and a free hinge. This would be a huge improvement for most much less the ability to actually supply a couple of ounces of force to delay release somewhat beyond what a free hinge would accomplish.

Consider that John Daley warms up by swinging one handed and says he want to get tha same feel when both hands are on the club. In other words he wants the 'feel' of the trail hand not influencing the swing.

When I first came up with 'Experiment #1' it seemed from the effort I expended to keep the angle that the forces on my trail arm were huge. Then I saw John McLean do a little drill where he held the club between thumb and index finger of the trail hand and practiced moving down to club parallel to the ground with an apx 90 deg angle between lead arm and club. A lot of force was not really required. It just seemed that way because I was fighting myself and my desire/training to 'hit' with my trail arm. There is really very little effort relative to biceps strength for most, required to keep their trail hand 'out of the way'. Mainly you just need to overcome the action of trying to straighten and then the bit extra to overcome gravity & momentum. Not easy to do consciously in a swing and even harder unconsciously for most but because of training/psychology vs lack of physical strength/coordination.

Once I went to a gym with a friend who was into serious bodybuilding at the time. After going through a workout with him I could not straighten my arms for days as a result of the various biceps exercises. This could be a useful thing for golf

Peter
is a great analogy. I find that as I spend more time hitting balls with good angle retention, that it has become much easier to achieve ... less effort is required and I barely have to think about it anymore. I think you hit the nail on the head in that I don't have to fight the impulses to straighten the arms/hands in the DS as much, and that most of my perceived effort was the attempt to overcome these impulses ... impulses that seem to be rapidly fading.

Joined: September 22nd, 2006, 11:35 am
Is there more then one way to achieve a delayed release? Here is a nice description by Allen of how to achieve the late hit:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/me ... ed+release+...

Sounds good! However there may be another way as indicated by the sequence photos of my hinged club swing. The hinged club is free to hinge or un-hinge on its own. There is no hi impulse or retention here! Yet the late hit is present:

The trick here would be to have a free hinge in the wrists I think. I would like to note also that I had a very hard time getting the hinged club to release enough to get to impact with the clubhead far enough forward to have normal loft. I tended to get to impact with the clubhead lagging too far behind the hands.

Regards, Herbert
Oh that finish is sooo Count Yogi!! If I were you I'd swing like the Count...I have a cape and turban, if you would like to try it.

Joined: March 23rd, 2009, 3:58 am

Peter
a guy with terrible "lag" (for a pro) is on tour ---but all the discussion is about LAG (most ams need more , I know) but maybe not as much as you think

Joined: April 1st, 2003, 1:33 am
If you had a free hinge of the wrist however (vs 'wrists') you could get closer to the positions of your hinged club. This was an interesting thing I found a while back while studying one armed golfers (because the physics indicated a free hinge should get better results than the majority of ams). I came to the conclusion from that study that the problem is the trail arm (before I read Berthly but the same conclusion). The problem is that gravity AND swing forces (not to mention 'hit impulse)tend to straighten the trail arm sooner than it should and this opens the angle between lead arm and club more than would be the case if only the lead hand were on it. If you train your trail arm to keep that bend (as the Bertholy exercises do) it can effectively 'get out of the way' and allow you to get the performance you'd get with a single connection and a free hinge. This would be a huge improvement for most much less the ability to actually supply a couple of ounces of force to delay release somewhat beyond what a free hinge would accomplish.

Consider that John Daley warms up by swinging one handed and says he want to get tha same feel when both hands are on the club. In other words he wants the 'feel' of the trail hand not influencing the swing.

When I first came up with 'Experiment #1' it seemed from the effort I expended to keep the angle that the forces on my trail arm were huge. Then I saw John McLean do a little drill where he held the club between thumb and index finger of the trail hand and practiced moving down to club parallel to the ground with an apx 90 deg angle between lead arm and club. A lot of force was not really required. It just seemed that way because I was fighting myself and my desire/training to 'hit' with my trail arm. There is really very little effort relative to biceps strength for most, required to keep their trail hand 'out of the way'. Mainly you just need to overcome the action of trying to straighten and then the bit extra to overcome gravity & momentum. Not easy to do consciously in a swing and even harder unconsciously for most but because of training/psychology vs lack of physical strength/coordination.

Once I went to a gym with a friend who was into serious bodybuilding at the time. After going through a workout with him I could not straighten my arms for days as a result of the various biceps exercises. This could be a useful thing for golf

Peter
ever become aware of the feeling that you kept your right elbow closer to your lap line through the entire impact zone and beyond?

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am
a guy with terrible "lag" (for a pro) is on tour ---but all the discussion is about LAG (most ams need more , I know) but maybe not as much as you think
There are many examples in golf and other sports where someone through particular talents is able to succeed with mechanics that are not 'optimal'. Those who choose can always believe themselves to be one such and proceed accordingly.

I have previously posted a video clip of an am who by your standards as stated was likely more successful than Herbert since I videoed him at a US Open sectional qualifier. However he had a far less desireable impact position than the 'young' Herbert. Not everyone is willing to score like the golfer in Hardpan's story if the tradeoff is having that same full swing.

Peter

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am
ever become aware of the feeling that you kept your right elbow closer to your lap line through the entire impact zone and beyond?
the feel is different. Forcibly holding the angle ala Experiment #1 it feels as though my trail arm doesn't extend (though it does). The best not forcibly holding it feel as though my trail elbow comes very close and then my trail forearm and the club 'spring' off of that position through impact (vs staying close through and after).

Peter

Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm
a guy with terrible "lag" (for a pro) is on tour ---but all the discussion is about LAG (most ams need more , I know) but maybe not as much as you think
I forgot to mention when you asked, is consistency. This is one thing that pro's have in much greater supply than AM's. The trouble that most AM's have with their poor mechanics is that they are always applying band-aids to overcome the latest bad shot ... never quite sure what went wrong. This inconsistency results in bad scores. Any good scorer, such as Brian Gay, who has learned how to play well with sub-optimal mechanics is in part due to the fact that it is a consistent swing. He knows how to play it.

Now that my major swing changes are mostly accomplished, I can trust this swing because I feel that I am making the right moves. Now I can build consistency into the swing and this is when the scores will start to come down. The fact that I have developed adequate lag will help ensure that I make good contact with good distance a good deal of the time. I don't have to learn how to compensate for it as Gay has ... or maybe I should say that I was not as successful in my compensations as Gay has been. He clearly has more talent than I do. If you don't have the talent to compensate, then I highly suggest learning the optimal mechanics which includes a healthy dose of lag.