Cat like!

Cat like!

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 17th, 2010, 2:59 am #1

On tenth of a second reaction time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Y8N1UE ... 8&index=27

Applicable to golf?

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

November 17th, 2010, 8:26 am #2

the reaction time was actually around .22 not .10, because part of reaction time is the time it takes the brain to send the message, they subtracted that part and then called it a reflex. Strange if you ask me. Then you also have to know if he anticipated the puck coming in that direction because of the path of the hockey stick before impact. To do a fair reaction time test the puck would need to be shot out of a gun of some sort that would not let the goaltender know what direction it would be started in.

You can test yourself and practice at the following site.http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/rea ... /index.php

Some at that site get under .2, but I am not sure if some that is also anticipation or not.

Ham
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 17th, 2010, 3:24 pm #3

On tenth of a second reaction time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Y8N1UE ... 8&index=27

Applicable to golf?

Regards, Herbert
His reaction time was over 0.2 seconds and they said that. As Ham said they are subtracting the decision time (which is part of 'reaction time') and choosing to call the remaining portion a 'reflex' which it isn't (nor is it reaction time as you stated). A reflex is an action that does not require involvement of the brain but in this case without the brain he'd not know which side needs to move. An example of a reflex action is what happens when you grab something REALLY hot. No brain involvement to cause the muscle contractions that draw your hand away. Of course there's also the reflex action when the doctor hits your knee with the little rubber mallet.

Peter
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 17th, 2010, 6:52 pm #4

On tenth of a second reaction time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Y8N1UE ... 8&index=27

Applicable to golf?

Regards, Herbert
Thanks for the replies.

Of course a lot of it seems to be nonsense as Peter and Ham pointed out. They did not mention how they measure the cats reflexes which might be twice as fast if measured in the same way that the goalies were measured.

LOL the interesting part was the claim that the glove moved as a learned response or reflex due to practice. This learned short circuit response would be similar to 'muscle memory' in that it happens in the nervous system and not in the brain. I think that there is something to that part of it possibly? It would be similar to the chicken running with it's head cut off. Or a golfer swinging in habit mode...

I have heard that there is some evidence that we actually think with more of our system then just the brain. Supposedly emotions can come from the heart and the gut. I have not seen the research on this so it could be nonsense... Anybody out there know anything about such?

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

November 18th, 2010, 2:08 pm #5

You can train so that there is less decision time but for even the simplest actions the response times still comes to about 0.2 seconds. I have not checked this but I believe it is the same for the cat if the cat had to 'decide' something as the muscle and nervous system physiology is largely the same. It may be that the cat has some other things 'hard wired' that we don't like striking in response to a visual stimulus.

I don't know about research but there is a lot of evidence that memories are contained in places other than the brain. I heard a talk by a heart surgeon long ago that reported the recipient having some memories of the donor after a heart transplant.

Peter
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 18th, 2010, 9:08 pm #6

I read about a similar story in the book Deadly Emotions. The author was giving a lecture and was talking about the effect our emotions has on the heart, and that the heart has memories. Someone in the audience - perhaps your heart surgeon - asked if she could approach the podium. She told of a young patient of hers who had received a heart from another young girl who was kidnapped and murdered. Of course the story was kept form the little girl, but her parents knew.

Some time after her recovery, the little girl began having nightmares. Vivid nightmares of a little girl who was being hurt bad. So troubling and on going were these nightmares that they took her to a psychologist. The child's descriptions were so vivid, and recalled with such clarity that those who knew of the murdered donor child's case were contacted. She provided enough detail that the police were actually able to locate and arrest the murderer and obtain a conviction.

I referenced this article here before that talks about a study conducted with two volunteer amnesia patients whose temporal lobes were destroyed by herpes - thus they had severe memory impairment and no ability to retain things by use of active learning and conscious memory. Still they were able to learn and repeat new tasks...here's an excerpt that describes the study:
"The volunteers were presented with the same series of 8 pairs of miscellaneous objects and asked to select the correct one of each pair, in several sessions conducted over several weeks. The word correct was on the bottom of the correct object, and could be read after the object was picked up and turned over.

At the beginning of each session, the volunteers had no recollection of having performed the task previously, and even after several sessions they could not explain what they were being asked to do or why. But, after several sessions of repeating the exercise with the same pairs of objects, the volunteers unconsciously selected the correct item in each pair with increasing accuracy.

The ability to select the correct object appeared to be automatic. In fact, during the course of the study as they were able to select the correct object, the subjects wondered aloud, How am I doing this?. When asked how he knew which object to select, one of the subjects pointed to his head and replied It's here, and somehow or another the hand goes for it. By the end of the study they were scoring 95% and 100% in their selection of the correct item."
Of course, the implications of the above for learning, acquiring, and executing a golf swing ( or any acquired motor skill ) are pretty incredible, and open up a whole new world of opportunity for those who wish to take advantage.

Fascinating stuff.....

Kevin





Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 19th, 2010, 8:42 pm #7

""We have speculated that humans might have the same capacity to acquire habit memory, but that this capability is ordinarily obscured by our excellent capacity to learn by conscious memorization", said Squire."
Interesting that word obscured. Perhaps because we have such an excellent capacity to use conscious memory and active learning, we put too much stock and faith in it as the preferred and sometimes only method to acquire habit memory.

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Last edited by mcirishman57 on November 19th, 2010, 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 20th, 2010, 2:39 pm #8

You can train so that there is less decision time but for even the simplest actions the response times still comes to about 0.2 seconds. I have not checked this but I believe it is the same for the cat if the cat had to 'decide' something as the muscle and nervous system physiology is largely the same. It may be that the cat has some other things 'hard wired' that we don't like striking in response to a visual stimulus.

I don't know about research but there is a lot of evidence that memories are contained in places other than the brain. I heard a talk by a heart surgeon long ago that reported the recipient having some memories of the donor after a heart transplant.

Peter
Here is an interesting article that mentions cellular memory.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Cellular-Memori ... Recipients

The comments after the article by the artist whose 'ideas come from my hands' are interesting. I guess that the idea of muscle memory is not so far off as has been often stated...

I know that when I played table tennis I sometimes did things that absolutely amazed me. LOL I remember thinking how the heck did I do that? I know of a top level player who said that when he was really on he could adjust his bat while pushing a back spin ball by 'feeling' the spin on the bat surface. I always thought that he was kidding himself but maybe his hands really could do that???

This stuff changes the way that I think about my golf swing quite a bit... My gosh the yips and a lot of other things might actually be in the body and not the mind? Maybe getting nervous causes the hands to short circuit and push those damn putts off to the right? Or is the brain hat overrides the body system and screws up the stroke? Maybe guys like Joe Montana who simply don't choke really are 'wired' differently?

LOL lots of crazy stuff here! Feel free to set me straight!

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 20th, 2010, 3:27 pm #9

too!



Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 20th, 2010, 4:47 pm #10

Here is an interesting article that mentions cellular memory.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Cellular-Memori ... Recipients

The comments after the article by the artist whose 'ideas come from my hands' are interesting. I guess that the idea of muscle memory is not so far off as has been often stated...

I know that when I played table tennis I sometimes did things that absolutely amazed me. LOL I remember thinking how the heck did I do that? I know of a top level player who said that when he was really on he could adjust his bat while pushing a back spin ball by 'feeling' the spin on the bat surface. I always thought that he was kidding himself but maybe his hands really could do that???

This stuff changes the way that I think about my golf swing quite a bit... My gosh the yips and a lot of other things might actually be in the body and not the mind? Maybe getting nervous causes the hands to short circuit and push those damn putts off to the right? Or is the brain hat overrides the body system and screws up the stroke? Maybe guys like Joe Montana who simply don't choke really are 'wired' differently?

LOL lots of crazy stuff here! Feel free to set me straight!

Regards, Herbert
That's a great article, but keep in mind the memories in the article and others like Peter mentioned and I read refer mainly to sensory and emotional memories, not the motor-neural pathways/memories that are stored for performing different motor control functions and tasks. Those type of memories are storied deep inside the brain in the basal ganglia section.

For example, the 47 year old man receiving a heart from the 17 year old boy suddenly picked up an intense fondness for classical music. But he did not also receive the ability to play the violin! Now, if the 47 year old took up the violin, might his learning and ability proceed at a faster rate? Now that would be an interesting study!

I might just get on the list to receive Nicklaus' heart once he passes!

Kevin

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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