Bertholy --

Bertholy --

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:44 pm

April 9th, 2009, 4:05 pm #1

For those of you guys who have been doing the Bertholy , how long does it take you feel like you are seeing improvement ? It sure seems to be the topic of the board these days that's for sure.

How often do you do the drills ?

I have been reading these posts even though i have not posted lately. I do have the Bertholy book and did try it one winter a few years ago. Although i didn't probably do it long enough or often enough to make much of a differnce.

I did bye that Clear key stuff once too few years ago, but I must not have it anymore . I remember even talking to The guy Cory Munford I think about it. He sent it to me through E-mail . (I wonder if i would have to pay again if i wanted it once again)
Last edited by SATTHMS on April 9th, 2009, 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

April 9th, 2009, 5:49 pm #2

the first season, in terms of increased distance, but I was still all over the place with accuracy. I actually finished with a higher index than when I started! Looking back I was lacking a good mental approach to the game. I've said this before but had I known of Keygolf and clearkeys back then my progress would have been faster.

A lot also depends on the state of your swing and game now. If you "are close" to hitting the fundamentals Bertholy emphasizes, especially the master move, it may not take you very long. Allen seems to be experiencing a nice upgrade after just a few months work. I know whenever I find some thing that needs attention, it seems to take much faster now than before. I think this has to do with having the basic structure of the swing residing in habit memory. Once the swing is built it is built. If you use it everyday, it will stay in shape. But you may observe yourself and say "I'd like to increase the angle of the shaft and lead arm even more as I begin the move with my lead knee" or like I discovered recently found my trail hand losing it's claw on my irons. Then you work on that specific item until it is fixed. Think of it as a house, the basic structure is done, but you are doing some "home improvements". Or like the Windows Operating System - Windows SP1 works, but adding SP2 adds some upgrades.


Along these lines, I think it is also important to understand that there is "good, better, best, and better than the rest." Whether you "got it" depends a lot on what your goals/needs are. Your swing may be fine for your weekly league game, but if you have aspirations to be competetive at a higher level then you need to focus on those things that will allow you to do so. Obsessive practice of your basic swing once it is built is IMO counter productive. It sends a message to your self that "unless you practice it you will lose it". Well what happens if you cant practice? Doubt, which is very bad. Interesting comments have been made last couple of weeks along these lines regarding Vijay's injuries and the fact that he isn't able "to practice like he's used to", and that this is why he is struggling. That may be, but it may also be because HE BELIEVES he can't play as well because he can't practice as much. Not one of the talking heads in mainstream golf would ever mention that though!

Regarding the clearkey material, others have contacted Carey Munford and he has resent them their player profile and a new download link. He references everyone by email and their first and last name only though, so when you email him include all that: keygolf@charter.net
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:44 pm

April 9th, 2009, 7:27 pm #3

Thanks Carey did already send my the info.

I know you have been working on the bertholy for a long time , what was your level of play when you sarted and what is it now ?

Do yopu still work on it every week?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

April 9th, 2009, 8:50 pm #4

6 years ago and was a 19 handicap, and couldn't hit the ball outa my shadow. I am now a 2-4 handicap, have a swing speed of 125 mph, driving it close to 300 yds when I want to.

Last summer, for lotsa reasons I didn't do any of the programs. Just took a walk during lunch and swing my weighted club. This winter I began once again a full regime of the programs to get my golf shape back and get a head start on the season. Now that it is nice out ( relatively speaking ) I am working on mainly just golden exercise, rifle barrels and #4 and the psm jib. i am am concentrating focusing on my trial leg flex and improved claw ( trail hand extension ). I do the programs using the 32 ball pattern as described in "The Double Connexion" four thinking, four on clearkey.

So that seems like a long time, but if things work out "normally", I have a swing that will serve me well even into my 70's. And most importantly, a conditioning program that is golf oriented to keep it in shape! 4-6 years in exchange for 30 more years of a good swing...it's a no brainer.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 2nd, 2002, 7:44 pm

April 10th, 2009, 12:46 pm #5

Very impressive how far you have come.
in thaty nsame 6 year period i have not improved at all. Maybe at times gooten worse from switching swings methods so often. In fact from my handicap in our league has went down the last year or so.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

April 14th, 2009, 6:43 pm #6

For those of you guys who have been doing the Bertholy , how long does it take you feel like you are seeing improvement ? It sure seems to be the topic of the board these days that's for sure.

How often do you do the drills ?

I have been reading these posts even though i have not posted lately. I do have the Bertholy book and did try it one winter a few years ago. Although i didn't probably do it long enough or often enough to make much of a differnce.

I did bye that Clear key stuff once too few years ago, but I must not have it anymore . I remember even talking to The guy Cory Munford I think about it. He sent it to me through E-mail . (I wonder if i would have to pay again if i wanted it once again)
I've been doing the drills 1 hour per day, every day since late January. I had some early rapid success, followed by a bit of backsliding, and then more success, etc. I suppose that everyone follows this two steps forward one step backward see-saw progression pattern. I started out doing the drills 6 years ago for about a month, but then abandoned them due to pure laziness. I've recommitted myself (after 6 years of no improvement) and am reaping the rewards of this commitment.

I've only played twice since starting the programs (both times in relatively inclement weather) and saw a lot of improvement in ball striking. Unfortunately, I don't have any improvement in handicap to report yet as I haven't played enough. However, I did hit long irons and fairway woods with relative ease ... long and straight. I basically gave up on these clubs several years ago as I couldn't hit them at all with my old swing.

I do a mix of all of the drills in my hourly session each day (spending more time on Programs 3 - A & C, and rifle barrel.) I have video taped myself 4 times since starting (on Clearkey so as not to introduce mental involvement and exaggerated achievement into the results) and have seen a slow but steady improvement in my positions. I'm now making about a 105* shoulder turn at top of BS where I started with about 75*. I'm starting the DS with my lead knee and fully shifting my weight before impact where I used to start the DS with my hands, staying pretty much on my trail side. My cast (lag) angle (angle between trail arm and club shaft) at Keystone (lead arm at 45* in DS) is now about 96* where I started at about 125* (the goal is at least 90*). I've gained about 10-15* of lag angle per month while doing the programs. At impact my shoulders are now roughly square to the target line where they used to be about 20-30* closed. I also am now keeping my forward spine angle relatively constant throughout the BS and down into impact. I used to jut my hips forward in the DS and straighten my spine angle to completely vertical at impact (resulting in a lot of fat and thin shots.)

I consider myself to be of average athletic ability and so I guess its fair to say that these improvements are average for doing the PB programs. Do keep in mind that I have done the drills for 60-90 minutes EVERY day for about 80 straight days now. My ultimate goal is a low single digit handicap (I've averaged 10-13 over the last 6 years.) The secondary goal is to hit the proper positions with the proper angles as proven by video analysis. I'm anticipating that I'll achieve the positions and angles goal in the next month or so. When I do, I'll probably back off of the intensity of doing the programs. The handicap improvement will probably take a couple of years as it takes a while to be able to do this consistently while playing.
Last edited by allenws on April 14th, 2009, 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 28th, 2003, 12:59 pm

April 14th, 2009, 11:43 pm #7

make the mistake of those before you. You can't let up when you THINK you have improved. That's the time you need to burn the posititions in your m-skeletal system.

Glad you are finding improvement
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

April 15th, 2009, 12:29 pm #8

for the encouragement. I didn't mean that I would stop, just maybe cut back from 8 hours of program work a week to maybe 5 or 6. Summer is coming up and with yard work and all... I actually do plan to play golf as well and there are only so many hours in the week.

How does one know when the positions are "burned" into memory? Actually I do plan on keeping a pretty constant video journal. If I find that I'm slipping, or progress has stalled, I will ratchet the work back up. I have no intention of failing this time.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

April 15th, 2009, 1:00 pm #9

are a clearkey proponent, you know that "once you got it you got it". No need to "keep burning" something that is already there. This is where Bertholy and Keygolf part paths somewhat as Bertholy says that "constant fine tuning" will always be necessary, and Keygolf says if it is a true habit, there is no need. Still it is a fair question, how does one know when it is "burnt"? When is a habit a habit?

How did you know when you could tie your shoes? Ride a bike? When you could, right? It's the same thing with the programs. When your performance on clearkey is as good or better than it is while thinking about it, then they are "burnt". Furthermore, if your real swing is exhibiting the desired characteristics which are the intended end result of the programs, then you are likewise done. Does your swing have increased power, accuracy, and are you achieving pro quality benchmarks? Or, to take a more realistic approach, is your swing to the point that you are happy with it for the current level you want to play at? It may be, so no need to continue "practicing". Start working on the scoring game!

Once the swing is built, the programs are useful only as aid in keeping in golf shape. If you play everyday, you can back off to next to nothing. If you you don't hit shots everyday, then doing some work with the weighted club, golden exercise, and some PSM work should be fine. I know this differs somewhat from what Bertholy ( indeed most all golf instruction ) says, But obsessive practice of something that is already a habit is a waste of time. That time could be spent on other things more productive - like developing habits in other areas that aren't there yet - an bunker explosion shot, ingraining a pure putting stroke, working on specialty shots.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

April 15th, 2009, 4:53 pm #10

for the encouragement. I didn't mean that I would stop, just maybe cut back from 8 hours of program work a week to maybe 5 or 6. Summer is coming up and with yard work and all... I actually do plan to play golf as well and there are only so many hours in the week.

How does one know when the positions are "burned" into memory? Actually I do plan on keeping a pretty constant video journal. If I find that I'm slipping, or progress has stalled, I will ratchet the work back up. I have no intention of failing this time.
Another point is that I'm not basing my decisions upon what I THINK, but what can be proven via video analysis. Again, by using Clearkey, I'm reducing the introduction of artificial manipulation while under scrutiny. It will be as close as I can get to measuring what I'm actually doing. I am a Craftsman after all.

But I am heeding the warning. I did give up too early last time. I don't want to make the same mistake again.
Quote
Like
Share