Bent elbows and space

Bent elbows and space

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 17th, 2011, 5:38 pm #1

To have more bend in the trail elbow at impact the trail shoulder has to be closer to the hands. So it follows that the more the shoulders are rotated assuming an inclined plane the more bent the trail elbow will tend to be. This is certainly true in Dustin Johnson's case. So the less 'space' between the trail shoulder and the hands the more bent the trail elbow. This is easy to test by simply taking a club in hand and doing a bit of experimenting.

Another aspect of this is that a lot of pros including JK himself will tell you that a strong grip requires a lot of rotation to keep from hooking the ball. This could be why I have noticed that strong grips seem to go along with more bent trail elbows.

Hmmm, it would seem that if you goal is Single Axis and to swing like Moe then you should want to 'face the ball' at impact meaning a trail arm with less bend at impact. In other words a very bent trail elbow at impact is an indication of to much rotation and poor SA method???

As for me I have discovered that if I try to get into the position that say Dustin Johnson is in it hurts my lead hip a lot. Even moving to this open hips and open shoulders impact position while doing a slow motion drill is a killer for my old bod. LOL it is precisely why my lead hip hurt all the time when I was younger and more 'athletic'. So, unless I am missing something in technique it comes down to a lack of flexibility for me.

Regards, Herbert

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 17th, 2011, 11:29 pm #2

Hogan did not have a strong grip and his trail elbow is very bent at impact. You can 'face the ball at impact' and have a very bent trail elbow if your trail shoulder is low enough. Long ago I posted a little exercise that will show this in addition to its original purpose.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 18th, 2011, 8:07 am #3

Yes, there are certainly exceptions and I don't even know if it is generally true that stronger grip swings are more likely to have more bend in the trail elbow. It is good theory though!

LOL comes down to the definition of 'face the ball' doesn't it? Is Hogan's trail shoulder lower because it is rotated a long ways around? If so then he is not 'facing the ball' at impact in the same way that Moe is???

Do you think that a very bent trail elbow at impact is a good thing that SA golfers should strive for?

There are some all time greats who did not have all that much bend in the trail elbow at impact...

Regards, Herbert
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

January 18th, 2011, 12:58 pm #4

To have more bend in the trail elbow at impact the trail shoulder has to be closer to the hands. So it follows that the more the shoulders are rotated assuming an inclined plane the more bent the trail elbow will tend to be. This is certainly true in Dustin Johnson's case. So the less 'space' between the trail shoulder and the hands the more bent the trail elbow. This is easy to test by simply taking a club in hand and doing a bit of experimenting.

Another aspect of this is that a lot of pros including JK himself will tell you that a strong grip requires a lot of rotation to keep from hooking the ball. This could be why I have noticed that strong grips seem to go along with more bent trail elbows.

Hmmm, it would seem that if you goal is Single Axis and to swing like Moe then you should want to 'face the ball' at impact meaning a trail arm with less bend at impact. In other words a very bent trail elbow at impact is an indication of to much rotation and poor SA method???

As for me I have discovered that if I try to get into the position that say Dustin Johnson is in it hurts my lead hip a lot. Even moving to this open hips and open shoulders impact position while doing a slow motion drill is a killer for my old bod. LOL it is precisely why my lead hip hurt all the time when I was younger and more 'athletic'. So, unless I am missing something in technique it comes down to a lack of flexibility for me.

Regards, Herbert
Herbert: "So, unless I am missing something in technique it comes down to a lack of flexibility for me."

It all depends on what you are after, how much your bod can adapt and change, and how much you are willing to work at it. I am more flexible now at 53 than I was at 43. In fact I am more flexible than lots of way younger guys I play with in my league. I'm stronger now too. It has been a gradual progression that has happened as the years have gone on.

There is a TV commercial out for some arthritis medicine that shows a guy sitting on a porch swing..."A body at rest tends to stay at rest...a body in motion tends to stay in motion..."

I like that. I try to do something every day ( except for scheduled rest and recovery days ) fitness and health wise and make it golf related too. When I first started, I could barely finish 25 minutes on the treadmill and I was huffin and puffin at the end. Now I breeze through 35 minutes and barely break a sweat (higher rate of speed too) and then hop off and bang out my speed chain and over speed training for another 30 minutes giving me a nice fitness and golf workout. On non speed workout days, I bump up the treadmill to 45 minutes and throw in my stretches. It is not overtly "gym rat intensive" but this workout combined with a change in diet and lifestyle has allowed me to lose close to 30 pounds now in a years time - doesn't sound like a lot but the difference is that the weight is staying off.

My back is another thing. Since Peter first encouraged me to watch my hunching through impact, I have focused on on improving my spine angle and posture. When I first started this focus back in September, even one 32 ball session caused much lower back pain while practicing - new motions using muscles in a different way, but my lower back pain after was nil. Now, I can do my full golf workout, about an 1/2 hour of swinging, with no pain or discomfort at all during the session and I am not.

I also am noticing that in the morning when I wake up I have less of those morning aches and pains, and after some extra hard physical labor - like stacking a cord of firewood - I am not sore the next day. This never used to be the case.

So just want to encourage you to do something each day, and since you are a golfer make it something that gets a synergy going of fitness and improving your golf swing. You won't ever get to Dustin Johnson's level perhaps, but you can get a whole lot better....gradually and with a consistent focus.

Kevin


Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 18th, 2011, 3:49 pm #5

Yes, there are certainly exceptions and I don't even know if it is generally true that stronger grip swings are more likely to have more bend in the trail elbow. It is good theory though!

LOL comes down to the definition of 'face the ball' doesn't it? Is Hogan's trail shoulder lower because it is rotated a long ways around? If so then he is not 'facing the ball' at impact in the same way that Moe is???

Do you think that a very bent trail elbow at impact is a good thing that SA golfers should strive for?

There are some all time greats who did not have all that much bend in the trail elbow at impact...

Regards, Herbert
I think it is critical that SA golfers have a bent trail arm at impact. Scott emphasizes 'dual rails' at address and impact - from a view parallel to the target line the lead arm should be clearly above the trail. This is not possible with shoulders parallel to the target line and trail arm straight. The closer the trail arm is to straight the less margin for error there is before it is straight and bad things begin to happen.

There are some interesting differences in the amount of trail arm bend at impact tour pros exhibit but for all I've examined the trail arm is bent.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

January 18th, 2011, 4:24 pm #6

Herbert: "So, unless I am missing something in technique it comes down to a lack of flexibility for me."

It all depends on what you are after, how much your bod can adapt and change, and how much you are willing to work at it. I am more flexible now at 53 than I was at 43. In fact I am more flexible than lots of way younger guys I play with in my league. I'm stronger now too. It has been a gradual progression that has happened as the years have gone on.

There is a TV commercial out for some arthritis medicine that shows a guy sitting on a porch swing..."A body at rest tends to stay at rest...a body in motion tends to stay in motion..."

I like that. I try to do something every day ( except for scheduled rest and recovery days ) fitness and health wise and make it golf related too. When I first started, I could barely finish 25 minutes on the treadmill and I was huffin and puffin at the end. Now I breeze through 35 minutes and barely break a sweat (higher rate of speed too) and then hop off and bang out my speed chain and over speed training for another 30 minutes giving me a nice fitness and golf workout. On non speed workout days, I bump up the treadmill to 45 minutes and throw in my stretches. It is not overtly "gym rat intensive" but this workout combined with a change in diet and lifestyle has allowed me to lose close to 30 pounds now in a years time - doesn't sound like a lot but the difference is that the weight is staying off.

My back is another thing. Since Peter first encouraged me to watch my hunching through impact, I have focused on on improving my spine angle and posture. When I first started this focus back in September, even one 32 ball session caused much lower back pain while practicing - new motions using muscles in a different way, but my lower back pain after was nil. Now, I can do my full golf workout, about an 1/2 hour of swinging, with no pain or discomfort at all during the session and I am not.

I also am noticing that in the morning when I wake up I have less of those morning aches and pains, and after some extra hard physical labor - like stacking a cord of firewood - I am not sore the next day. This never used to be the case.

So just want to encourage you to do something each day, and since you are a golfer make it something that gets a synergy going of fitness and improving your golf swing. You won't ever get to Dustin Johnson's level perhaps, but you can get a whole lot better....gradually and with a consistent focus.

Kevin


Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Congrats on your lifestyle change that is great stuff. Keep it up! I think that possibly golf has added some years to your life expectancy? Of course you might have done the same at this point in your life for some other reason even if you did not play golf...

It is not a fitness level problem for me as I used to sometimes walk 36 holes and then run 3 miles in the hills after. I still had the hip pain depending on how I was swinging. Probably more to do with flexibility or some problem with technique for instance the straight lead leg as opposed to keeping it flexed... Hip stretches do help and I do need to get back to doing them with a lot more consistency!

Hopefully I will take some inspiration from your example and exercise a bit more often!

Regards, Herbert
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 23rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

January 18th, 2011, 7:21 pm #7

I think it is critical that SA golfers have a bent trail arm at impact. Scott emphasizes 'dual rails' at address and impact - from a view parallel to the target line the lead arm should be clearly above the trail. This is not possible with shoulders parallel to the target line and trail arm straight. The closer the trail arm is to straight the less margin for error there is before it is straight and bad things begin to happen.

There are some interesting differences in the amount of trail arm bend at impact tour pros exhibit but for all I've examined the trail arm is bent.

Peter
????

Tom
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 6th, 2004, 8:10 am

January 18th, 2011, 8:40 pm #8

Herbert: "So, unless I am missing something in technique it comes down to a lack of flexibility for me."

It all depends on what you are after, how much your bod can adapt and change, and how much you are willing to work at it. I am more flexible now at 53 than I was at 43. In fact I am more flexible than lots of way younger guys I play with in my league. I'm stronger now too. It has been a gradual progression that has happened as the years have gone on.

There is a TV commercial out for some arthritis medicine that shows a guy sitting on a porch swing..."A body at rest tends to stay at rest...a body in motion tends to stay in motion..."

I like that. I try to do something every day ( except for scheduled rest and recovery days ) fitness and health wise and make it golf related too. When I first started, I could barely finish 25 minutes on the treadmill and I was huffin and puffin at the end. Now I breeze through 35 minutes and barely break a sweat (higher rate of speed too) and then hop off and bang out my speed chain and over speed training for another 30 minutes giving me a nice fitness and golf workout. On non speed workout days, I bump up the treadmill to 45 minutes and throw in my stretches. It is not overtly "gym rat intensive" but this workout combined with a change in diet and lifestyle has allowed me to lose close to 30 pounds now in a years time - doesn't sound like a lot but the difference is that the weight is staying off.

My back is another thing. Since Peter first encouraged me to watch my hunching through impact, I have focused on on improving my spine angle and posture. When I first started this focus back in September, even one 32 ball session caused much lower back pain while practicing - new motions using muscles in a different way, but my lower back pain after was nil. Now, I can do my full golf workout, about an 1/2 hour of swinging, with no pain or discomfort at all during the session and I am not.

I also am noticing that in the morning when I wake up I have less of those morning aches and pains, and after some extra hard physical labor - like stacking a cord of firewood - I am not sore the next day. This never used to be the case.

So just want to encourage you to do something each day, and since you are a golfer make it something that gets a synergy going of fitness and improving your golf swing. You won't ever get to Dustin Johnson's level perhaps, but you can get a whole lot better....gradually and with a consistent focus.

Kevin


Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
Kevin,

The reduction in next day aches and pains is very likely due to your new caveman diet - cutting out/reducing the grains and artificial sugars removes major sources of inflammation from your body. At 62 I can play a tough game of squash now with no after effects the next day - so a mere youngster like you should have no problems
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 18th, 2011, 11:05 pm #9

????

Tom
because it is.

Peter
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 17th, 2001, 6:19 am

January 19th, 2011, 9:43 am #10

I think it is critical that SA golfers have a bent trail arm at impact. Scott emphasizes 'dual rails' at address and impact - from a view parallel to the target line the lead arm should be clearly above the trail. This is not possible with shoulders parallel to the target line and trail arm straight. The closer the trail arm is to straight the less margin for error there is before it is straight and bad things begin to happen.

There are some interesting differences in the amount of trail arm bend at impact tour pros exhibit but for all I've examined the trail arm is bent.

Peter
I do not see the lead arm above the trail here in Moe's swing, and the trail arm looks very close to straight.




Ham
Quote
Like
Share