Joined: 7:22 PM - Oct 11, 2001

2:39 AM - Jun 04, 2010 #51

ways to get pro level clubhead speed but there are not nearly as many to get the other characteristics of pro level swings like consistent clean contact.

A few years back Charles Howell did an ad with a baseball player. In an interview he noted that the baseball player could hit a golf ball over 300 yards easily but he was seldom able to find it afterwards

Peter
but he hardly ever breaks 100. He hits those "400 yard drives" - 150 yards left, and 250 yards back. B A N A N N A ball!

Occasionally he will catch one just right man is he long when he does....but I almost always outdrive him even when he does manage to "play his fade back into the fairway".

Never quit til you have a swing you'll never forget!
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Joined: 3:58 PM - Oct 29, 2006

9:39 PM - Jun 04, 2010 #52

ways to get pro level clubhead speed but there are not nearly as many to get the other characteristics of pro level swings like consistent clean contact.

A few years back Charles Howell did an ad with a baseball player. In an interview he noted that the baseball player could hit a golf ball over 300 yards easily but he was seldom able to find it afterwards

Peter
I thought the secret of the golf swing was lag.
That the big mussels supplied most of the power,
the arms and hands are secondary in producing speed,
and the lag , the angle between the forearm and
the club straightenes at the last moment giving
the club head most of it's speed.
I understand that accuracy is better served with
the pro type swing, but what about just club head speed-

Do the guys who say the small mussels produce most of
the club head speed have a leg to stand on if they
were to use the guys swing in Herbert's post as an examlpe?

Something seems strange here, and it's not just me.
If a guy with not much lag in his swing can
hit the ball over 300 yds learns the proper lag,
he should be able to hit a ball even farther right?
I mean a lot farther, not just a few yds.

JC

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Joined: 12:00 AM - Jan 01, 1970

10:06 PM - Jun 04, 2010 #53

Getting to a correct impact position is absolutely key to any good golf swing and that is VERY difficult without sustaining the angle between lead arm and club much later than the vast majority of amateurs.

In such a swing the arms and hands are not secondary they really don't play a role at all in adding positive torque to make the club go faster. Also it is not only accuracy but everything that comes from clean contact (like control of spin and trajectory) that require this.

The guys that say speed comes from the muscles (sic) in the arms and hands have little or nothing to stand on. A close look at the guy in Herbert's video shows lots of muscle action from muscles in the body that enable the speed. If you want to see how far you can hit the ball with just your 'small' muscles then strap yourself to a tree and strap your upper arms to your sides and see how far the ball will go. In that position you have the full use of the muscles in your arms and hands.

Someone that can hit the ball over 300 yards without sustaining the angle between lead arm and club will hit the ball much further with the same amount ot effort if he's able to sustain the angle with that amount of effort. This is why you don't see any Remax long drive winners that don't sustain the angle.

Peter
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

10:26 PM - Jun 04, 2010 #54

I am beginning to believe based on video and experience that the angle between the lead arm and clubshaft is not the controlling factor for distance at all. It is the angle between the trail arm and club and the bend of the trail elbow that produce distance. Of course the two are interrelated... I do think that trying to create a sharp angle between lead arm clubshaft is a mistake that causes swing problems. I think that it is better and easier to work on the trial arm side. In other words the dog's hind leg or claw position and let the lead arm and clubshaft do what ever they do in your particular swing.

Hmmm, I guess that what I am getting at is that it is possible to have a sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft very late in the downswing with a straight trail elbow and very limited clubhead speed. While the opposite is also true there can be a lot of bend in the trail elbow and wrist with not such a sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft that will produce a lot of speed and distance. I suppose that this would be similar to throwing a ball with a straight arm vs throwing with a bent arm that straightens out to release. Throwing with a straight arm will produce limited ball speed.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

1:15 AM - Jun 05, 2010 #55

Getting to a correct impact position is absolutely key to any good golf swing and that is VERY difficult without sustaining the angle between lead arm and club much later than the vast majority of amateurs.

In such a swing the arms and hands are not secondary they really don't play a role at all in adding positive torque to make the club go faster. Also it is not only accuracy but everything that comes from clean contact (like control of spin and trajectory) that require this.

The guys that say speed comes from the muscles (sic) in the arms and hands have little or nothing to stand on. A close look at the guy in Herbert's video shows lots of muscle action from muscles in the body that enable the speed. If you want to see how far you can hit the ball with just your 'small' muscles then strap yourself to a tree and strap your upper arms to your sides and see how far the ball will go. In that position you have the full use of the muscles in your arms and hands.

Someone that can hit the ball over 300 yards without sustaining the angle between lead arm and club will hit the ball much further with the same amount ot effort if he's able to sustain the angle with that amount of effort. This is why you don't see any Remax long drive winners that don't sustain the angle.

Peter
If you leave your arms free in the shoulder sockets then you can generate some clubhead speed depending on how strong you are. If the arms can move then the triceps and wrist muscles can be used to help generate some speed. LOL it occurs to me that some golfers might play a lot better that way. You could incline a board at the correct angle for the shot and strap the golfers torso to the board reducing movement of the body and probably produce repeatable clean straight shots...

Many golfers use their arm and wrist muscles to 'power' the golf swing and I think that to not do that is the tricky part...

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: 12:00 AM - Jan 01, 1970

2:16 PM - Jun 05, 2010 #56

I am beginning to believe based on video and experience that the angle between the lead arm and clubshaft is not the controlling factor for distance at all. It is the angle between the trail arm and club and the bend of the trail elbow that produce distance. Of course the two are interrelated... I do think that trying to create a sharp angle between lead arm clubshaft is a mistake that causes swing problems. I think that it is better and easier to work on the trial arm side. In other words the dog's hind leg or claw position and let the lead arm and clubshaft do what ever they do in your particular swing.

Hmmm, I guess that what I am getting at is that it is possible to have a sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft very late in the downswing with a straight trail elbow and very limited clubhead speed. While the opposite is also true there can be a lot of bend in the trail elbow and wrist with not such a sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft that will produce a lot of speed and distance. I suppose that this would be similar to throwing a ball with a straight arm vs throwing with a bent arm that straightens out to release. Throwing with a straight arm will produce limited ball speed.

Regards, Herbert
To use conservation of angular momentum to advantage you need to have a small radius when energy is applied (less inertia) which then becomes a large radius at impact. The best one armed golfers that use the one arm as a lead arm maintain a smaller angle between the 'lead' arm and the club longer than the vast majority of amateurs (but not as small as long as the majority of tour pros I've examined). One armed golfers that use the one arm as a trail arm maintain the bend at their elbow and wrist longer than the vast majority of ams.

If you have both hands on the club with your trail hand lower on the club you can not maintain a significant bend (as shown in the clip of Hogan) and not maintain the angle between lead arm and club.

The golfer in your example is instructive - If he had the bend in his trail wrist that he would ideally have, the angle between his lead arm and the club would be smaller and closer to that achieved by the best 'lead side' one armed golfers.

All of this relates to an efficient golf swing - speed vs energy. You can have a les efficient golf swing but if you put in sufficiently greater effective energy the clubhead speed at impact can be faster with a less efficient swing. However maximum clubhead speed at impact is achieved with maximum effective energy AND maximum efficiency.

Peter
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Joined: 12:00 AM - Jan 01, 1970

2:17 PM - Jun 05, 2010 #57

If you leave your arms free in the shoulder sockets then you can generate some clubhead speed depending on how strong you are. If the arms can move then the triceps and wrist muscles can be used to help generate some speed. LOL it occurs to me that some golfers might play a lot better that way. You could incline a board at the correct angle for the shot and strap the golfers torso to the board reducing movement of the body and probably produce repeatable clean straight shots...

Many golfers use their arm and wrist muscles to 'power' the golf swing and I think that to not do that is the tricky part...

Regards, Herbert
The muscles that manipulate your upper arms are not in your arms therefore they are not 'small muscles' as referenced in the prior post.

Peter
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Joined: 6:19 AM - Nov 17, 2001

4:00 PM - Jun 05, 2010 #58

If you leave your arms free in the shoulder sockets then you can generate some clubhead speed depending on how strong you are. If the arms can move then the triceps and wrist muscles can be used to help generate some speed. LOL it occurs to me that some golfers might play a lot better that way. You could incline a board at the correct angle for the shot and strap the golfers torso to the board reducing movement of the body and probably produce repeatable clean straight shots...

Many golfers use their arm and wrist muscles to 'power' the golf swing and I think that to not do that is the tricky part...

Regards, Herbert
Many golfers use their arm and wrist muscles to 'power' the golf swing and I think that to not do that is the tricky part...

I think you are exactly right. Almost all golfers are using arm/wrist/hand muscles to control the club.

Except for those you see on TV.

Best regards,

Ham
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Joined: 8:30 AM - Jan 13, 2001

7:09 PM - Jun 05, 2010 #59

I have known this for a long time time but have rarely applied it. Recently I was hitting it well on the range but pull or even snap hooking rather often when I played. One day while warming up with my driver before playing I was hitting it well and I was happy with the length I was getting. I decided to relax my swing and slow the downswing and just let it happen for some reason. It seemed that the shots were still going about the same distance and it was a familiar feeling as I have played that way in the past off and on.

So I decided to discipline myself to swing that way while playing. Oddly enough I hit the ball considerably further then I have in a long time. I hit a lot of iron shots too far and my driver much farther then I have been. I play the same course quite often and after a while it becomes obvious that the ball is stopping a lot farther from the tee then it has been. As a matter of fact a buddy that I golf with occasionally mentioned that he had been out driving me but now I was ahead of him.

I still hit bad shots ranging from an occasional weak fade to the pull hooks. Usually I can feel the muscles in the arms taking over during the swing revealing a lack of trust in my ability to hit the shot. Fear as Remington likes to say. The way for me to combat the fear is to focus on making a perfect swinging motion making it happen right in front of me and forgetting about the target or possible outcomes of the shot. My other swing thought is to lead with the hands and watch the club swing through the ball.

Hmmm, in other words I focus on doing something that I know I can do and I don't worry about what I am afraid that I might do.

I am also doing a lot of drilling and swinging a shaft with no head for speed training which may be having a positive effect. I also changed my grip to what I believe is a natural grip for me that allows me to relax and swing through with no corrections.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: 6:19 AM - Nov 17, 2001

8:49 PM - Jun 05, 2010 #60

I think you are on the right track.

The more I learned and practiced the more I could not believe how easy the swing seemed to be. It is like a revelation when you think to yourself that it really can't possibly be so easy, but it really is.

What a game!!!

Ham
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