90 degree angle?

90 degree angle?

Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 4th, 2009, 4:38 am #1



Not close to 90 degrees between lead arm and clubshaft. Jason's swing looks a lot like the swing recommended by Trahnan other then the huge shoulder turn and few other things... There is a very bent trail arm I think that the trail wrist is bent way back. I am thinking that the sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft is not really very important... As a matter of fact trying to achieve this angle might be more trouble then it is worth.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

November 4th, 2009, 6:14 pm #2

Herbert, do you have a photo of Jason farther along
in his down swing? I wonder if the angle of club
and lead arm increases before impact.
Don't some players cock their wrist on the down swing,
or is he too far along in his down swing for that?

JC
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gsw
Joined: July 27th, 2000, 11:22 pm

November 4th, 2009, 9:08 pm #3



Not close to 90 degrees between lead arm and clubshaft. Jason's swing looks a lot like the swing recommended by Trahnan other then the huge shoulder turn and few other things... There is a very bent trail arm I think that the trail wrist is bent way back. I am thinking that the sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft is not really very important... As a matter of fact trying to achieve this angle might be more trouble then it is worth.

Regards, Herbert
He can absolutely pound a golf ball so whatever he is doing works.


Stan
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 4th, 2009, 10:19 pm #4

204 mph ball speed is not bad I guess. Jason does bend his lead arm a fair amount at the top so you have that in common with him!

I do find it interesting that an acute angle between lead arm and club shaft is not needed to generate tremendous clubhead speed. Of course I guess that Jack Kuykendall proved that some time ago anyway.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 5th, 2009, 2:33 am #5

Herbert, do you have a photo of Jason farther along
in his down swing? I wonder if the angle of club
and lead arm increases before impact.
Don't some players cock their wrist on the down swing,
or is he too far along in his down swing for that?

JC
You can take a look for yourself here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kp2J8gW1qw

To answer your question no he does not downcock as far as I can see. It looks to me that the angle is opening up a bit from here through to impact.

Regards, Herbert
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

November 5th, 2009, 5:59 am #6



Not close to 90 degrees between lead arm and clubshaft. Jason's swing looks a lot like the swing recommended by Trahnan other then the huge shoulder turn and few other things... There is a very bent trail arm I think that the trail wrist is bent way back. I am thinking that the sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft is not really very important... As a matter of fact trying to achieve this angle might be more trouble then it is worth.

Regards, Herbert
of the camera angle which seems to be at floor level.
You can see that the striking surface of his fist
pretty much faces the camera which seems to indicate
that we are looking down the length of his left arm
and makes it possible that the angle of left arm and
shaft may be greater than you think.

Another view would be nice from a conventional camera
setup.
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Joined: October 11th, 2001, 7:22 pm

November 5th, 2009, 1:35 pm #7

Anything taken out of context can be made to prove a point - you can even find it in the Bible that it says "There is no God". When I was a wild and rebellious in high school I used to smirk at my parents - "Don't go looking for what you don't want to find!" The opposite is true also...If we don't think it is important to lag the club and retain the angle, then we can probably go looking and find proof to back that up, as has just been seen in the OP. Perhaps this is done because we aren't retaining the angle ourselves and we don't want to do what's necessary to be able to...so it is easier to just try and find a reason that it is not needed! At any rate..... I went looking for the opposite just for the sake of discussion:



Bout the same point in the swing ...judging from the space between his trail elbow and his side. Hmmmmmm...maybe this is just a better swing! This one he'll bomb 400, in Herbert's pic he only hit it 325...probably becasue he was "wiping".

Pretty much everyone that hits it far lags the club...of course there are always the "Uncle Charlies". We all know him - He smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, drinks a fifth of whiskey, eats bacon and eggs for breakfast, and red meat and potatoes for dinner...and has for 60 years. He is 85, healthy as a horse (cholesterol under 150), and is highly successful in business. People that want to live that way point to him and say -"Heck, look at Uncle Charlie, he is better than fine, and look at the way he lives." Of course he is the exception, and most of us aren't Uncle Charlie. We aren't Jason Zubak either!

Learn to lead with the front knee, while lagging the club head and you will hit the ball far. That's what "most of us" need to do.
Last edited by mcirishman57 on November 5th, 2009, 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 30th, 2001, 4:02 pm

November 5th, 2009, 2:45 pm #8



Not close to 90 degrees between lead arm and clubshaft. Jason's swing looks a lot like the swing recommended by Trahnan other then the huge shoulder turn and few other things... There is a very bent trail arm I think that the trail wrist is bent way back. I am thinking that the sharp angle between lead arm and clubshaft is not really very important... As a matter of fact trying to achieve this angle might be more trouble then it is worth.

Regards, Herbert
Look at his trail arm at Keystone, 6/100 and impact. Look how bent it is!!! In fact, at 6/100, look how high his hands are and the fact that you can't see any trail arm forearm at all. This means that it is probably still bent less than 90* (you can't really tell from a head-on view.)This guy holds the angles by an incredible amount as do all long drivers. Zuback has an extremely steep swing plane which distorts the angle between club and lead arm from this camera view (just like Garcia's extremely flat swing plane exaggerates this angle in the opposite direction.)



I've stopped looking at the angle between the club and lead arm in my own video analysis as I've found this to be a fairly unreliable measure of my angle retention abilities. I now exclusively look at my trail arm angle from a down-the-line view, and examine this angle much later in the swing (6/100 thru impact) as a much better predictor of my skill level.

While this is not quite down-the-line, it is a better look at Zuback's trail arm near 6/100 from this same video (the angle is probably really 90* or less in a true side view):


Last edited by allenws on November 5th, 2009, 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 9:58 pm

November 5th, 2009, 4:10 pm #9

Anything taken out of context can be made to prove a point - you can even find it in the Bible that it says "There is no God". When I was a wild and rebellious in high school I used to smirk at my parents - "Don't go looking for what you don't want to find!" The opposite is true also...If we don't think it is important to lag the club and retain the angle, then we can probably go looking and find proof to back that up, as has just been seen in the OP. Perhaps this is done because we aren't retaining the angle ourselves and we don't want to do what's necessary to be able to...so it is easier to just try and find a reason that it is not needed! At any rate..... I went looking for the opposite just for the sake of discussion:



Bout the same point in the swing ...judging from the space between his trail elbow and his side. Hmmmmmm...maybe this is just a better swing! This one he'll bomb 400, in Herbert's pic he only hit it 325...probably becasue he was "wiping".

Pretty much everyone that hits it far lags the club...of course there are always the "Uncle Charlies". We all know him - He smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, drinks a fifth of whiskey, eats bacon and eggs for breakfast, and red meat and potatoes for dinner...and has for 60 years. He is 85, healthy as a horse (cholesterol under 150), and is highly successful in business. People that want to live that way point to him and say -"Heck, look at Uncle Charlie, he is better than fine, and look at the way he lives." Of course he is the exception, and most of us aren't Uncle Charlie. We aren't Jason Zubak either!

Learn to lead with the front knee, while lagging the club head and you will hit the ball far. That's what "most of us" need to do.
I said greater when I should have said lesser.
You can take a 90 deg angle and look at it
obliquely and it may appear to be 120 deg.
You can do this now with your post-it pad.

Thanks for the pic. I couldn't find one.
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Joined: January 13th, 2001, 8:30 am

November 5th, 2009, 6:22 pm #10

Anything taken out of context can be made to prove a point - you can even find it in the Bible that it says "There is no God". When I was a wild and rebellious in high school I used to smirk at my parents - "Don't go looking for what you don't want to find!" The opposite is true also...If we don't think it is important to lag the club and retain the angle, then we can probably go looking and find proof to back that up, as has just been seen in the OP. Perhaps this is done because we aren't retaining the angle ourselves and we don't want to do what's necessary to be able to...so it is easier to just try and find a reason that it is not needed! At any rate..... I went looking for the opposite just for the sake of discussion:



Bout the same point in the swing ...judging from the space between his trail elbow and his side. Hmmmmmm...maybe this is just a better swing! This one he'll bomb 400, in Herbert's pic he only hit it 325...probably becasue he was "wiping".

Pretty much everyone that hits it far lags the club...of course there are always the "Uncle Charlies". We all know him - He smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, drinks a fifth of whiskey, eats bacon and eggs for breakfast, and red meat and potatoes for dinner...and has for 60 years. He is 85, healthy as a horse (cholesterol under 150), and is highly successful in business. People that want to live that way point to him and say -"Heck, look at Uncle Charlie, he is better than fine, and look at the way he lives." Of course he is the exception, and most of us aren't Uncle Charlie. We aren't Jason Zubak either!

Learn to lead with the front knee, while lagging the club head and you will hit the ball far. That's what "most of us" need to do.
I am not trying to prove anything. I am interested in what is as opposed to what we might want it to be. I could have taken a few shots from the same swing that would appear to show an acute angle between the lead arm and the clubshaft. In my experience in front of a mirror it is very possible to make the angle look more acute then it actually is. CD has mentioned that the angle may look less acute then it actually is in this photo. I am not so sure about that but I am going to take a look to see for myself when I get time.

As for lag I would say that Mr. Zuback is demonstrating a lot of lag in the photo that I posted. It is the definition of lag that I am interested in. I am thinking that it is more in the trail side then in the angle between lead arm and clubshaft.

Regards, Herbert
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