The Spirit - Greek insight?

nikolai_42
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nikolai_42
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4:08 PM - Jun 02, 2015 #1

The last month or two have been rather chaotic for me and the next couple of months look to be as well. I have been able to look in periodically here and TOL, but not much participation. Too much going on in my life to be very involved in posting. But the Word of God still must be in view no matter what is going on in our lives.

So as I was looking at Romans 6-8 and I Corinthians 14:13-15 (wrestling with tripartite nature and associated issues) I noticed that the KJV had "the Spirit" capitalized (in Romans) where "spirit" was not. At least most of the time...there are several exceptions to that.

At first I began to suspect that my particular bible was simply inconsistent for some editorial reasons (I mainly use the Zodhiates Key Word Study Bible -- KJV and the earlier edition). But when I looked on Biblegateway, I noted that the same thing seemed to be happening in such translations as the Geneva Bible and another KJV (John 6:63 is the primary example). In general, though, as I look at the instances of "the spirit" where it seems like it might be more appropriate to capitalize "spirit" (i.e. to be personal to the Spirit of God), it seems that other versions are more likely to capitalize where the KJV has more of a mixture.

What is the reason for this disparity?
If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale
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DrWhofan1
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DrWhofan1
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12:14 AM - Jun 03, 2015 #2

nikolai_42:22355 wrote:The last month or two have been rather chaotic for me and the next couple of months look to be as well. I have been able to look in periodically here and TOL, but not much participation. Too much going on in my life to be very involved in posting. But the Word of God still must be in view no matter what is going on in our lives.

So as I was looking at Romans 6-8 and I Corinthians 14:13-15 (wrestling with tripartite nature and associated issues) I noticed that the KJV had "the Spirit" capitalized (in Romans) where "spirit" was not. At least most of the time...there are several exceptions to that.

At first I began to suspect that my particular Bible was simply inconsistent for some editorial reasons (I mainly use the Zodhiates Key Word Study Bible -- KJV and the earlier edition). But when I looked on Biblegateway, I noted that the same thing seemed to be happening in such translations as the Geneva Bible and another KJV (John 6:63 is the primary example). In general, though, as I look at the instances of "the spirit" where it seems like it might be more appropriate to capitalize "spirit" (i.e. to be personal to the Spirit of God), it seems that other versions are more likely to capitalize where the KJV has more of a mixture.

What is the reason for this disparity?
Think that some of this is due to if one is using the TR, or else the CGT, and also based upon some honest differences in just how scholars viewed which passages intended to mean the Holy spirit and our spirit!
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Ask Mr. Religion
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4:38 AM - Jun 03, 2015 #3

It is likely due to the translators' differences underlying the textual tradition (TR vs. CT) being used.
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DrWhofan1
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12:08 AM - Jun 04, 2015 #4

Ask Mr. Religion:22364 wrote:It is likely due to the translators' differences underlying the textual tradition (TR vs. CT) being used.
Yes, as that would be where honest differences in what the original texts would have said are played out!
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ThomasJ
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6:05 AM - Jun 06, 2015 #5

In this case it appears to be a translation decision rather than any manuscript difference.

Taking John 6:63 as the example, the KJVs lack of capitalization is carries forward by the ASV, RSV, and NRSV even though starting the ASV they were translated from the Critical Text rather than the TR. Whereas the NKJV, still based on the TR, capitalizes the first instance of spirit. The KJV way of translating appears almost exclusively until the mid-20th century outside of some more eccentric translations like those of Joseph Smith, John Nelson Darby, and Farrar Fenton.


....

After writing this I got curious and pulled up an actual imaging of an early edition of the KJV and to my surprise rather than both instances of Spirit being lowercase, both were actually uppercase which sets it apart from any other translation I'm aware of. I would assume the change came during the 1769 standardizing of the spelling, capitalization and punctuation of the KJV.

That said, this is one of the reasons that when I'm studying a passage and grasping its meaning comes down to understanding the specific meaning of a specific word, I feel I have to go look into the underlying Greek or Hebrew rather than relying on the grammar or punctuation found in any English translation if I want to get the most accurate sense I can of what it means.
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DrWhofan1
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11:44 PM - Jun 06, 2015 #6

ThomasJ:22374 wrote:In this case it appears to be a translation decision rather than any manuscript difference.

Taking John 6:63 as the example, the KJVs lack of capitalization is carries forward by the ASV, RSV, and NRSV even though starting the ASV they were translated from the Critical Text rather than the TR. Whereas the NKJV, still based on the TR, capitalizes the first instance of spirit. The KJV way of translating appears almost exclusively until the mid-20th century outside of some more eccentric translations like those of Joseph Smith, John Nelson Darby, and Farrar Fenton.


....

After writing this I got curious and pulled up an actual imaging of an early edition of the KJV and to my surprise rather than both instances of Spirit being lowercase, both were actually uppercase which sets it apart from any other translation I'm aware of. I would assume the change came during the 1769 standardizing of the spelling, capitalization and punctuation of the KJV.

That said, this is one of the reasons that when I'm studying a passage and grasping its meaning comes down to understanding the specific meaning of a specific word, I feel I have to go look into the underlying Greek or Hebrew rather than relying on the grammar or punctuation found in any English translation if I want to get the most accurate sense I can of what it means.
That is why in order to really at times do justice to what God intended for us to know, we need to get to work in the original language texts themselves!
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nikolai_42
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12:50 PM - Jun 15, 2015 #7

Thank you all. And ThomasJ - that clarification only reinforces what noticing this seeming inconsistency did for me : how important it is to be grounded in the underlying Greek.

Makes me wonder more about the differences between the Masoretic and the Critical....
If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale
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DrWhofan1
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6:09 PM - Jun 15, 2015 #8

nikolai_42:22421 wrote:Thank you all. And ThomasJ - that clarification only reinforces what noticing this seeming inconsistency did for me : how important it is to be grounded in the underlying Greek.

Makes me wonder more about the differences between the Masoretic and the Critical....
The important things to remember is that they would agree totally with each other on probabky 90-95 % of the entire texts, and the differences would be mainly due to variants and scribal omitions/additions...

And that there would be NO essential core dictrines regardless of which Greek text was preferred to be used...
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