Pope wants revised translation of the Lord's Prayer

Translations, manuscripts, historicity, authorship, and reception by the Church.

Pope wants revised translation of the Lord's Prayer

nikolai_42
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nikolai_42
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07 Dec 2017, 17:25 #1

Apparently, Pope Francis doesn't like the translation "...and lead us not into temptation..." that is found in the KJV and wants it revised to something like the French RCC use ("...do not let us fall into temptation...")

Pope wants better translation of phrase on temptation in 'Our Father' prayer

From the article :

The prayer, also called “The Lord’s Prayer”, is part of Christian liturgical culture and memorized from childhood by hundreds of millions of Catholics.

It is a translation from the Latin vulgate, which was translated from ancient Greek, which was in turn translated from Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus.
 I'm sure there are phrases from the Vulgate that were deemed good as is and weren't changed, but didn't the KJV go right back to the Greek? It seems misleading to say that the text used is a translation from the Vulgate. Or am I wrong here? Tyndale, for example, uses "trespasses" where the majority of translations (even the KJV!) use debts or sins (depending on version and whether in Matthew 6 or Luke 11). And he was not trying to be faithful to the Vulgate. And since the KJV is (as I am told) at least 80% Tyndale, is it really fair to say that the KJV Lord's Prayer is a translation from the Vulgate?
If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale
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Gord
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Gord
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Joined: 13 Jun 2009, 14:24

10 Dec 2017, 12:44 #2

The pope (and his band of merry men) is just another 'liberal' puppet of satan.
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nikolai_42
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nikolai_42
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11 Dec 2017, 18:51 #3

Gord wrote: The pope (and his band of merry men) is just another 'liberal' puppet of satan.
So is this claim of Vulgate origin a Papal error or journalistic error (or both)?
If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale
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brandplucked
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06 Jan 2018, 14:34 #4

The Pope wants to change The Lord’s Prayer in Matthew 6:13. He says “it is not a good translation.”

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/12/07 ... rayer.html



Pope Francis has suggested he wants to make a change to The Lord's Prayer, widely known among the faithful as the “Our Father.”

Specifically, the Catholic leader said in an interview Wednesday he would prefer to adjust the phrase “lead us not into temptation,” saying that it too strongly suggested that God leads people to sin.
“That is not a good translation,” the pope said, according to Reuters.  


The phrase “do not let us fall into temptation,” which the Catholic Church in France has previously decided to use, would be a more appropriate alternative, Francis said.

 
He added that the phrase used by the French, or similar wording, should then be implemented around the globe.

The prayer originated from Jesus’s language of Aramaic. It was then translated to ancient Greek, and later to Latin.”


BUT, is the Pope right?  And does he have any idea what he is talking about?  Simple answer: Nope. He is clueless, and here is why.

First thing to point out, there already IS a major textual difference between the traditional Reformation bibles in all languages, and the Roman Catholic versions (there are many different ones and they keep changing all the time), and the New Vatican supervised text versions like the ESV, NIV, NASB.


In the verse being criticized by the Pope, we read the following in the Reformation Bibles - 

You can see the whole article here - 

Matthew 6:13 & Luke 11:2-4  - Is your bible a "Catholic" bible?

http://brandplucked.webs.com/matthew613.htm

The Lord's Prayer - Is your Bible a Vatican Version?

KJB - Matthew 6:13 "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM, AND THE POWER, AND THE GLORY, FOR EVER. AMEN."  


ESV (NIV, NET, Jehovah Witness NWT, Catholic versions) - "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

And now the Pope wants to change the phrase “And lead us not into temptation.” because he tells us it is a bad translation.

There are no textual variants in the inspired Greek text of the phrase “and lead us not into temptation”.  

It looks like this - και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον 

The verb used here is  εισενεγκης and it has nothing to do whatsoever with the verb “to fall”.

It is the second person singular aorist subjunctive of the verb eisphero, which literally means “to bring into” and this particular verb is found 7 times in the Greek text.  

Matthew 6:13 is the first time it is used in the New Testament and it is correctly translated as “lead”

Here are the other instances of the word.

Luke 5:18 - they sought TO BRING in a man that was sick with the palsy.

Luke 5:19 “that they might BRING him in”

It is used again in the other instance where the Lord Jesus was teaching them to pray in Luke 11:4 as “and LEAD us not into temptation”

Acts 17:20 “For thou BRINGEST certain strange things to our ears”

1 Timothy 6:7 “For we BROUGHT nothing into this world”

Hebrews 13:11 “whose blood IS BROUGHT into the sanctuary”

It should be abundantly clear that this verb literally means “to BRING INTO” something.  It has nothing at all to do with the verb “to fall” which is an entirely different Greek and English word.

The next important thing our Bible correcting Pope misunderstands is the meaning of the word “TEMPTATION” or “to tempt”.

If people would simply learn more about our own English language (and other languages as well) we would soon find out that one of the meanings of the verb “to tempt” is “TO PROVE, TO TEST or TO TRY” as well as “to entice to do wrong.”  The context determines  the meaning.


The Cambridge Dictionary gives a modern example of the use of the word to tempt in the sense of PUTTING TO THE TEST. It lists: "You're TEMPTING fate by riding your bike without wearing a cycle helmet."


Wordsmyth Dictionary list four modern meanings of the word "to tempt", and #3 is the meaning found in Genesis 22:1 as well as other places in the Bible.

1. to entice or try to entice (someone) to do something unwise or wrong, as by promising pleasure or reward.

2. to be attractive or strongly appealing to
    Example:   The idea of a swim right now tempts me.

3. to provoke or PUT TO THE TEST.
   Example:   Such recklessness tempts fate.

4. to cause to be strongly inclined or disposed.
   Example:   I was tempted to reply to their rudeness.
 
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary 1998 also gives these definitions and examples.

Tempt, v. t. O.E. tempten, tenten, from OF. tempter, tenter, F. tenter, fr. L. tentare, temptare, to handle, feel, attack, to try, put to the test, urge, freq. from tendere, tentum, and tensum, to stretch.

1. TO PUT TO TRIAL; TO PROVE; TO TEST; TO TRY.  God did tempt Abraham. --Gen. xxii. 1.

Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God. --Deut. vi. 16.

2. To lead, or endeavor to lead, into evil; to entice to what is wrong; to seduce. Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. --James i. 14.

For more information on the use of this word see my study on Genesis 22:1 where we read - 

“And it came to pass after these things, that God DID TEMPT Abraham, and said unto him...Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest...and offer him there for a burnt offering..."

http://brandplucked.webs.com/gen221temptab.htm

God DOES at times lead his children into times of trial, testing and proving in order to purify us as gold in the fire and to cause us to cling more closely to Him and His faithfulness in getting us through difficult times when these times of testing are needed in our lives.

It is never a pleasant experience.  

Bible Commentators 

John Gill comments on Matthew 6:13 - “And lead us not into temptation,.. that is, into the power of it, so as to be overcome by it, and sink under it; in which sense the phrase is to be understood here. We are not here taught to pray against temptations at all, or in any sense, for they are sometimes needful and useful; but that they may not have the power over us, and destroy us. There are various sorts of temptations. There are the temptations of God; who may be said to tempt, not by infusing anything that is sinful, or by soliciting to it; but by enjoining things hard and disagreeable to nature, as in the case of Abraham; by afflicting, either in body or estate, of which Job is an instance; by permitting and letting loose the reins to Satan, and a man's own corruptions; by withdrawing his presence, and withholding the communications of his grace; and sometimes by suffering false prophets to arise among his people: his ends in them are on his own account, the display of his power; grace, wisdom, and faithfulness; on account of his Son, that his saints might be like him, and he might have an opportunity of exercising his power and pity: and on his people's account, that they might be humbled; their faith and patience tried; might see their weakness, and need of Christ, and be excited to prayer and watchfulness.”

Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament-

And bring us not into temptation (και μη εισενεγκηις εις πειρασμον —. “Bring” or “lead” bothers many people. It seems to present God as an active agent in subjecting us to temptation, a thing specifically denied in James 1;13. The word here translated “temptation” (πειρασμον) means originally “trial” or “test” as in  James 1:2.  But God does test or sift us, though he does not tempt us to evil. No one understood temptation so well as Jesus for the devil tempted him by every avenue of approach to all kinds of sin, but without success. In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus will say to Peter, James, and John: “Pray that ye enter not into temptation”  Luke 22:40.  That is the idea here. Here we have a “Permissive imperative” as grammarians term it. The idea is then: “Do not allow us to be led into temptation.” 

Notice this verse found in 1 Corinthians 10:12-13 where we read - 

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no TEMPTATION taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who WILL NOT SUFFER YOU (allow or permit you) TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

Notice that it is GOD Himself who “suffers” or allows and permits this temptation to take place, and it is ultimately for our good.  

Notice also Matthew 4:1 that tells us: "Then was Jesus LED UP OF THE SPIRIT into the wilderness TO BE TEMPTED of the devil."  

And Hebrews 2:11 informs us: "For in that he himself hath suffered BEING TEMPTED, he is able to succour them that are TEMPTED."  

Jesus was tempted or tried and tested, but it was for the purpose of showing that He could not sin.  We are often tempted with the intent that God would purify us through trials and increase our dependance upon Him as our only refuge and strength.  

One brother asked me why we should pray that we not be lead into temptation.  This is a good question.  As I understand it, we should be walking in such close fellowship with our heavenly Father that there would be no need for us to pass through a time of being tempted for the purpose of purifying our walk with the Lord.

Compare Hebrews 12:5-13 for a good commentary on how the Lord chastens His children "for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."  

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them that are exercised thereby."  Hebrews 12:11


The Bible Versions 

Matthew 6:13 - reading “and LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION” are the following Bible translations, just to name a few - the Catholic Douay-Rheims 1582 and the Douay Version 1950, Wycliffe bible 1395, the Geneva Bible 1587, Darby 1890, Young’s 1898, the NKJV 1982, NASB 1995, NET version 2006, NIV 2011, the ESV 2016, Holman Standard 2009, Orthodox Jewish Bible 2011, The Modern English Version 2014.

Foreign Language Bibles = “And lead us not into temptation”

The Spanish Cipriano de Valera 1602, Spanish Reina Valera 1960,  1977, 1995 and 2015 - “Y no nos metas en tentación”, the Italian Diodati 1649, La Nuova Diodati 1991 and the Italian Riveduta 2006  - “ E non esporci alla tentazione”,  the French Louis Segond bible - “ne nous induis pas en tentation”, and the Portuguese Almeida Corrigida of 2009 - “E não nos induzas à tentação.”

The King James Bible and all these other Bibles are correct as they stand, and they certainly are NOT a bad translation in any way and they certainly do not need to be changed in this verse.  

The only temptation I see here is that of the Pope himself who thinks we should just change what God's word says in order to make it more palatable to the understanding of modern man.

All of grace, believing the Book, the King James Holy Bible,

Will Kinney

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nikolai_42
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nikolai_42
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16 Jan 2018, 16:18 #5

I guess he's only being consistent. I recall (though can't quote nor cite) a quote to the effect that the Pope had the power to change times, seasons and even Scripture. I want to say it was Gregory, but it's been a while.
If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale
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