John 6:37-40 and Judas

St_Worm2
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St_Worm2
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Joined: August 9th, 2015, 10:05 pm

August 16th, 2018, 6:34 am #1

Greetings Everyone, I have a question about Judas and the Perseverance of the Saints. 

John 6:37-40 (excerpt) tells us: 

........."ALL that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day".

We also read this about the Twelve, who Jesus "chose", and who He also tells us were all given to Him by His Father.

.........John 6
.........70      Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”


.........John 17
.........12      While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of   
.........perdition,,so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.


It seems a very peculiar thing that one of God's elect would ever be referred to as "a devil" and/or as "the son of perdition", and it is even more peculiar that one who was given to Christ by His Father would be eternally lost (considering what the Scriptures say).

So what do we do with Judas? Was He elect from before the foundations of the world, or was he reprobate and simply chosen by Jesus to be an Apostle (because Jesus knew who he was, the son of perdition, and that choosing him was necessary to fulfill the Scripture)?  Or is it something else altogether? 

And how do we reconcile the above Scriptures with one another, that Judas was "given" to Jesus by His Father and yet he was lost?

Thanks!

--David
Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for. ~Charles H. Spurgeon
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Markus Leoninus
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Markus Leoninus
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Joined: April 2nd, 2009, 3:11 pm

August 16th, 2018, 7:27 pm #2

The excerpt you quote from Jn. 6:37-40 does not tell us that the Father gave all 12 of the original disciples, to include Judas Iscariot, to Jesus in the salvific sense. Jesus simply states that of all that the Father does in fact give Him in that sense, these shall come to Him, and none are lost.
The statement of Jesus in Jn. 6:70 simply refers to His choice of the original 12 to accompany and assist Him in His earthly ministry. This is not a reference to election in the salvific sense, it seems to me, for if it were it would contradict the Reformed doctrine of election and a number of passages from Scripture from whence comes that doctrine.
The statement in Jn. 17:12 is certainly one made with election in the salvific sense intended. It also points to what we understand in Reformed theology as the doctrine of reprobation, or non-election to salvation of some. But, Jesus does not actually say that Judas was among those chosen in the salvific sense. He says He kept those the Father gave Him in that sense, but it is abundantly clear to me that Judas is designated in the passage very specifically as one not elected to salvation at all. Judas, in other words, is one of history's reprobate individuals; and a reprobate person of singular note in the history, seeing he betrayed Jesus personally and directly in a decidedly monstrous fashion.

And so, these scriptures do not teach that Judas Iscariot was, in fact, given by the Father to Jesus in the salvific sense.

The Westminster Standards certainly make clear in precise and concise fashion the facts about these matters based squarely upon the biblical data.
See, for primary instance, chapters 3 and 17 of the WCF, with the corresponding statements made in the Shorter and Larger Catechisms of the Standards:
Harmony of the Westminster Standards
https://confessionalism.files.wordpress ... ndards.pdf
The 2nd London Baptist Confession does likewise:
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

This, then, is my take in terms of understanding these verses/passages. 
When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, when we compare Scripture with Scripture, as the Standards do and as all representative Reformed theologians at great length have done over the centuries, both Presbyterian and Baptist, we can order our thinking biblically, logically and coherently, without confusion; or, at least, with these resources, confusion and mystery can be minimized in our thinking, or significantly reduced.

Your question is an interesting one, and I hope my answer is helpful.
I am anxious, though, for Patrick and Reformed Baptist, and other knowledgeable persons on the site to weigh in.

🙂
Beware of phony Calvinists, Pharisees that thumb the nose, willfully blind to their own profound wretchedness.
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St_Worm2
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St_Worm2
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Joined: August 9th, 2015, 10:05 pm

August 16th, 2018, 10:42 pm #3

Thanks Markus! I've just begun a discussion with someone who believes that salvation can be lost so, of course, he points to Judas as the principle, Biblical example to prove his point (quite frankly, I would do the same if I believed what he does 😉). However, as I began to look at the verses that I used in my OP above to make my reply to him, I remembered that this was one of those topics that I'd put on the back burner a couple of times in the past, figuring that I would eventually get around to studying it (so that's why I'm here 🙂).

It's actually pretty easy to counter my Arminian friend's argument, because all he's saying at this point is that Judas lost his salvation (which is something that he never had to begin with). But once I took a look at this from the POV of election again, I decided to table my reply and come here to discuss it first (because what the Lord tells us in John 6:37-40, that 'none' will be lost who are drawn/given to Him by His Father, seems to be contradicted in John 17:12, in the case of Judas anyway).

Thank you for your reply. I'll get back to you about it shortly (though you and I are pretty much on the same page at this point).

God bless you! (Numbers 6:24-26)

--David
Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for. ~Charles H. Spurgeon
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