nikolai_42
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nikolai_42
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Joined: October 4th, 2013, 5:12 pm

August 8th, 2016, 6:20 pm #11

larry joseph pearson:25124 wrote::proclaim: FALLING INTO SIN DOES NOT MEAN ONE HAS TO WALK IN SIN. TRUE BELIEVERS WILL NOT!

:yes:
No indeed!

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 Romans 6:11-14

Nowhere does it say sin does not strike, but it isn't to reign. It isn't to rule (says the non-Greek speaker....). True believers may fall but they don't stay "down".

The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.
Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

  Psalm 37:23-24
If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale
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DrWhofan1
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August 8th, 2016, 7:37 pm #12

In the lives of the redeemed, sinning should be the exception, but in the case of the unsaved, it is the rule!
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larry joseph pearson
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August 9th, 2016, 4:30 am #13

RB, I should have examined your Scripture reference given in Romans 6:1.

τι ουν ερουμεν; επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια ινα η χαρις πλεοναση;
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? Romans 6:1.

Paul raises this possible objection from the last part of Chapter 5 which might seem to prove what he denied in Romans 3:8. Paul is asserting the power of Christ's death is in His saving and deliverance from sin and not in preserving in sin. Sin does not obtain grace for license but faith obtains grace for the forgiveness of sin of any magnitude. God has an infinite store of grace for forgiveness of sins but none for the propagation of sin.

The words τη αμαρτια : τη being a definite article, dative case, singular , feminine.  αμαρτια being a NOUN, dative case, singular, feminine. Sets the tone of Paul over against John's use of verbs in dealing with abiding in sin. Paul is asking not that we shall continue or remain in the practice of sin but in the principle of sin.Paul is not licensing the acts of sin but eradicates them by going to their source-the principle and nature of sin. The dative case locates the realm. Those effectually called can not live in the nature of sin and the nature of grace.

επιμενωμεν: verb, present tense, active , subjunctive, first person, plural. The practice of sin as a habit is raised. The sin principle from which we have been regenerated. Are we going to remain or tarry (1 Corinthians 16:8;  review tarry) in our old sin nature? A verb in the present subjunctive indicates a continuous action. A  verb in the Aorist subjunctive indicates an undefined action. There is no concept of absolute past or present time in the subjunctive.
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August 9th, 2016, 3:31 pm #14

larry joseph pearson:25138 wrote:RB, I should have examined your Scripture reference given in Romans 6:1.

τι ουν ερουμεν; επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια ινα η χαρις πλεοναση;
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? Romans 6:1.

Paul raises this possible objection from the last part of Chapter 5 which might seem to prove what he denied in Romans 3:8. Paul is asserting the power of Christ's death is in His saving and deliverance from sin and not in preserving in sin. Sin does not obtain grace for license but faith obtains grace for the forgiveness of sin of any magnitude. God has an infinite store of grace for forgiveness of sins but none for the propagation of sin.

The words τη αμαρτια : τη being a definite article, dative case, singular , feminine. αμαρτια being a NOUN, dative case, singular, feminine. Sets the tone of Paul over against John's use of verbs in dealing with abiding in sin. Paul is asking not that we shall continue or remain in the practice of sin but in the principle of sin.Paul is not licensing the acts of sin but eradicates them by going to their source-the principle and nature of sin. The dative case locates the realm. Those effectually called can not live in the nature of sin and the nature of grace.

επιμενωμεν: verb, present tense, active , subjunctive, first person, plural. The practice of sin as a habit is raised. The sin principle from which we have been regenerated. Are we going to remain or tarry (1 Corinthians 16:8; review tarry) in our old sin nature? A verb in the present subjunctive indicates a continuous action. A verb in the Aorist subjunctive indicates an undefined action. There is no concept of absolute past or present time in the subjunctive.
Thanks again, that clears up the question about Rom 6:1 and this is all really helpful to me but why is ἁμαρτάνει (1 John 3:6) indicative (assertion) and not subjunctive if a subjunctive present tense would logically be the choice to mean continued action?
"George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists." Spurgeon
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Ask Mr. Religion
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August 14th, 2016, 10:08 am #15

Reformed Baptist:25139 wrote: Thanks again, that clears up the question about Rom 6:1 and this is all really helpful to me but why is ἁμαρτάνει (1 John 3:6) indicative (assertion) and not subjunctive if a subjunctive present tense would logically be the choice to mean continued action?
In the passage John explicitly defines what remaining in God means: refraining from sin. There is an association between seeing God in Christ and knowing God (see John 1: 18 and forward). The person who has not seen Him is still blind and in the dark. For that matter those who think they see and know God have not truly seen and known Him if they continue to live with sin in their lives. They lack the vision and knowledge of Jesus, who He is, and what He came to do.

Indeed, the statement that everyone who remains in him does not sin is difficult. :think:

An often common way of reading the continuous aspect of the present tense do not sin (οὐχ ἁμαρτάνει) as No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. That said, in 1 John 5:16, wherein the present tense is used, it is referring to individual acts of sinning, not habitual sinning. So a reading of "keeps on sinning" in 1 John 3:6 introduces further tension.

Moreover, it seems to me that a subtle connotation in verbal aspect would not be suitable to bear such an important point. One commentator, Marshall, in Epistles of John, at page 181, reads the present tense as an implicit imperative to state what Christians ought to be, yielding a statement of the ideal, anyone who lives in him ought not to sin. Yet there are no clear parallels of this volitive use of the present tense elsewhere.

Interestingly, in Wallace's Greek Grammar, pp. 52425, he rejects taking the present tense here as continually and Wallace suggests it may be a proleptic gnomic present that will be true when the eschatological hope is realized. (See here for more on the tenses.)

Paraphrasing the conditional implicit in the statement would be something like if someone remains in him, they do not sin, suggesting that sinning is mutually exclusive with remaining in Christ. Now this does not mean that a Christian who sins bounces in and out of Christ, rather it means in so far as the Christian abides in the Lord, the Christian does not sin. Recognizing that there is no way to justify sin as compatible with life in Christ the Christian tempted to sin must decide whether they wish to live in Christ.

The original readers of 1 John undoubtedly began to feel the same discomfort that we modern readers feel when arriving at this verse. After all, since sin is a present reality in everyone's life, even the lives of those who are followers of Jesus Christ, how can anyone remain in him?

There is a distinct tension in 1 John 3:6-9. See Kruse here. The tension that begins at 1 John 3:6 comes to into a full court press in 1 John 3:9 that the one born of God is not able to sin. John is beginning to separate the sheep from the goats. I think Kruse's suggestion that anomia (lawlessness) resolves the contradictions some claim in 1 John exist. It is this sin that believers cannot commit because Gods seed remains in them. The children of God do sometimes commit sins (1 John 2:1), but the one thing they do not do is commit anomia, the sin of rebellion, the sin of the devil. If this interpretation is acceptable, we may say that the John has not contradicted himself, and we can do so without nullifying the argument of 1 John 3:4-10 in which John sets out criteria for distinguishing the children of God from the children of the devil.[POSTCOMMENTMYFFIPC25167]
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Reformed Baptist
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August 14th, 2016, 7:14 pm #16

Thanks AMR, that is really helpful.
"George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists." Spurgeon
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brandplucked
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January 8th, 2018, 4:09 pm #17

Hi all. Interesting topic.  I have a different point of view than what most say about it.  For your consideration.
God bless.

1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remaineth in him: and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God."

1 John 3:10 "whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God"

What do these verses mean? How are we to understand them in the light of not only a multitude of other Scriptures, but also our own Christian experience?

In this little study, I would like to offer another way of looking at several passages in the book of First John. It is my belief that most commentators have completely missed the point about what several critical verses in this book really mean. The explanations most often given end up contradicting many other portions of Scripture, and cause many of God's people to doubt their own salvation, thus robbing them of the peace Christ obtained for us at the cross of Calvary.

You may not agree with my views. I only ask that you take the time to consider them. We will be focusing primarily on 1 John 3:6-10 and 1 John 5:16-18.

"Whosoever abideth in him SINNETH NOT; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous. HE THAT COMMITETH SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remaineth in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that evil one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, AND HIS BROTHER'S RIGHTEOUS. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you." 1 John 3:6-13.

"If any man see his brother SIN A SIN which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that SIN NOT UNTO DEATH. There IS A SIN UNTO DEATH: I do not say that he shall pray for it. ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT; but he that is begotten of God keepth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." 1 John 5:16-18.

The usual explanations given for the phrases "doth not commit sin" and "he cannot sin" are that the Christian does not HABITUALLY practice or engage in sin. However I believe this explanation contradicts a multitude of other Scriptures, including First John itself.

Do Christians continue to sin? Of course we do. In fact, if we are honest with ourselves, we have to admit that we constantly sin every day of our lives. We sin in our attitudes, omissions of duty, lack of love, pride, self-righteousness, ingratitude for God's many blessings, unkind or lustful thoughts, complaining, selfishness, and by many of our actions every day. If we all sin several times every single day of our lives, is this not a pattern and a practice of sin?

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22.

"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." Luke 17:3-4
.
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do....Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do...I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:14-25

"For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17

"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. THEM THAT SIN rebuke before all, that others also may fear." 1 Timothy 5:19-20. These verses speak of elders in the church who are continually in a state of significant sin worthy of open rebuke. The verb is in the present continuous tense.

"For IN MANY THINGS WE OFFEND ALL." James 3:2. Again, the verb is in the present continuous tense, and James tells us that WE ALL continue to offend in many things.

"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover THE MULTITUDE OF SINS." 1 Peter 4:8. Peter is writing to fellow Christians, and among the assembly of the saints, there is a multitude of sins that need to be covered by brotherly love.

"For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me. My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness. I am troubled: I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long. For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease: and there is no soundness in my flesh." Psalm 38:4-7.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9.

"If any man see HIS BROTHER SIN A SIN which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that SIN NOT UNTO DEATH. There is A SIN UNTO DEATH; I do not say that he shall pray for it." 1 John 5:16. Again, the verb used here for a brother sinning sin is in a present continuous tense, meaning that this Christian brother is practicing a particular type of sin which can be seen by others, and from which he needs to be restored.

So how do we properly understand what the apostle John is talking about when he refers to what he calls "a sin unto death", and "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"?

The epistle of First John was written to confirm the sound doctrine which they had heard from the beginning, and to warn against false spirits, false prophets and antichrists. He tells us: "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for it they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:22, 19.

The apostle John is clearly telling us that there are TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF SIN that he refers to in his inspired letter. There is the "garden variety" type of sins that are our "thorns in the flesh", the "sin that dwelleth in me", and the "law of sin which is in my members"; and then there is the sin unto death, which is the final and total apostacy from the faith - the denial of the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. It is this second type of sin that the true born again child of God CANNOT DO, "because His seed (the ingrafted word of God) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.

What then does God mean when He says through John: "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous"? I believe the answer is found right there in the CONTEXT, but first, let's take a look at what the phrase cannot mean. The usual explanation is that a person who practices works of righteousness and does not habitually sin is shown to be a child of God and not of the devil.

Following the logic of this premise, we would then have to conclude that every person who does not commit adultery, does not murder, or steal, or get drunk, beat up on his wife, take the name of God in vain, or "smoke, chew, or goes with girls that do" is then righteous. Hopefully, we all know enough about our Bible to see that this is not true. If ever there were a righteous man in this moral sense, it would have been Saul before he got soundly converted and became the apostle Paul.

After his conversion the apostle Paul wrote these beautiful words: "Yea doubtless, I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord...that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Philippians 3:9.
Well, what about that "agape" love for one another? Nope. The Lord Jesus tells us in Luke 6:32: "for sinners also love those that love them", and the word used there for sinners loving one another is agape.

I believe the proper explanation of what the verses mean when they differentiate between the children of God and the children of the devil, and "whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" is found right there in the context. Just read the following verses.

"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's RIGHTEOUS."

What was so evil about Cain's works, and what was so righteous about those of his brother Abel? The only difference between these two brothers recorded in Scripture, is in their very different ways of approaching a holy God in order to be accepted of Him. Cain "brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect." Genesis 4:3-5

Cain brought the fruit of the labor of his own hands, and Abel brought a sacrificial lamb. Cain presented his own works, while Abel acknowledged himself to be a sinner worthy of death, who could only approach a holy God by means of an blood sacrifice which typified the Lamb of God who by His blood purchased His unworthy and sinful people.

It was in their manner of approaching the only true God that distinguished the one's works as being righteous and the other's as evil. To "do righteousness" is to approach God through the sacrifice of His Son who gave Himself for ours sins and clothed us in His own perfect righteousness. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ THE RIGHTEOUS: And he is the propitiation for our sins." 1 John 2:1-2

Throughout his epistle, the apostle John makes it clear that faith in Jesus as both the Christ and the Son of God is the evidence that we are born again. "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." 1 John 4:15

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?...These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life..." 1 John 5:1, 4, 5, 13.

There are only two spiritual families on this earth - the children of God and the children of the devil. Muslims love other Muslims; Hindus love other Hindus, Mormons love other Mormons, and sinners love other sinners, but they all look down on others who are not of their faiths. Every Christian also loves and cares about other Christians, even when we disagree with each other about some of the less important doctrinal issues. God Himself has given the true child of God a love for other members of His family, even though we may have some squabbles among ourselves like all earthly families do among brothers and sisters.

Every born again child of God will continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Likwise every born again child of God will continue to sin in manifold ways every day of his life until the Lord finally changes "this vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Phil. 3:21), but he CANNOT commit the sin unto death, but will instead "do righteousness" by approaching our God and Father through the only Advocate we have - Jesus Christ the righteous.

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake." 1 John 2:12.

Will Kinney
"Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2
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January 11th, 2018, 10:11 pm #18

Nicely done, Will.

What say you to Calvin's view of 1 John 3:9:
[+] Spoiler
He says that they sin not who are born of God. Now, we must consider, whether God wholly regenerates us at once, or whether the remains of the old man continue in us until death. If regeneration is not as yet full and complete, it does not exempt us from the bondage of sin except in proportion to its own extent. It hence appears that it cannot be but that the children of God are not free from sins, and that they daily sin, that is, as far as they have still some remnants of their old nature. Nevertheless, what the Apostle contends for stands unalterable, that the design of regeneration is to destroy sin, and that all who are born of God lead a righteous and a holy life, because the Spirit of God restrains the lusting of sin.

The Apostle means the same thing by the seed of God; for God's Spirit so forms the hearts of the godly for holy affections, that the flesh and its lusts do not prevail, but being subdued and put as it were under a yoke, they are checked and restrained. In short, the Apostle ascribes to the Spirit the sovereignty in the elect, who by his power represses sin and suffers it not to rule and reign.

And he cannot sin Here the Apostle ascends higher, for he plainly declares that the hearts of the godly are so effectually governed by the Spirit of God, that through an inflexible disposition they follow his guidance. This is indeed far removed from the doctrine of the Papists. The Sorbons, it is true, confess that the will of man, unless assisted by God's Spirit, cannot desire what is right; but they imagine such a motion of the Spirit as leaves to us the free choice of good and evil. Hence they draw forth merits, because we willingly obey the influence of the Spirit, which it is in our power to resist. In short, they desire the grace of the Spirit to be only this, that we are thereby enabled to choose right if we will. 

John speaks here far otherwise; for he not only shews that we cannot sin, but also that the power of the Spirit is so effectual, that it necessarily retains us in continual obedience to righteousness. Nor is this the only passage of Scripture which teaches us that the will is so formed that it cannot be otherwise than right. For God testifies that he gives a new heart to his children, and promises to do this, that they may walk in his commandments. Besides, John not only shews how efficaciously God works once in man, but plainly declares that the Spirit continues his grace in us to the last, so that inflexible perseverance is added to newness of life. Let us not, then, imagine with the Sophists that it is some neutral movement, which leaves men free either to follow or to reject; but let us know that our own hearts are so ruled by God's Spirit, that they constantly cleave to righteousness.

Moreover; what the Sophists absurdly object, may be easily refuted: they say that thus the will is taken away from man; but they say so falsely: for the will is a natural power; but, as nature is corrupted, it has only depraved inclinations. It is hence necessary that the Spirit of God should renew it, in order that it may begin to be good. And, then, as men would immediately fall away from what is good, it is necessary that the same Spirit should carry on what he has begun, to the end.

As to merit, the answer is obvious, for it cannot be deemed strange that men merit nothing; and yet good works, which flow from the grace of the Spirit, do not cease to be so deemed, because they are voluntary. They have also a reward, for they are by grace ascribed to men as though they were their own.

But here a question arises, Whether the fear and love of God can be extinguished in any one who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God? for that this cannot be, seems to be the import of the Apostle's words. They who think otherwise refer to the example of David, who for a time labored under such a beastly stupor, that not a spark of grace appeared in him. Moreover, in Ps 51:10-12, he prays for the restoration of the Spirit. It hence follows that he was deprived of him. I, however, doubt not but that the seed, communicated when God regenerates his elect, as it is incorruptible, retains its virtue perpetually

I, indeed, grant that it may sometimes be stifled, as in the case of David; but still, when all religion seemed to be extinct in him, a live coal was hid under the ashes. Satan, indeed, labors to root out whatever is from God in the elect; but when the utmost is permitted to him, there ever remains a hidden root, which afterwards springs up. But John does not speak of one act, as they say, but of the continued course of life.

Some fanatics dream of something I know not what, that is, of an eternal seed in the elect, which they always bring from their mother's womb; but for this purpose they very outrageously pervert the words of John; for he does not speak of eternal election, but begins with regeneration.

There are also those who are doubly frantic, who hold, under this pretense, that, everything is lawful to the faithful, that is, because John says that they cannot sin. They then maintain that we may follow indiscriminately whatever our inclinations may lead us to. Thus they take the liberty to commit adultery, to steal, and to murder, because there can be no sin where God's Spirit reigns. But far otherwise is the meaning of the Apostle; for he denies that the faithful sin for this reason, because God has engraven his law on their hearts, according to what the Prophet says (Jer 31:33.)
AMR (a.k.a. Patrick)
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