which matches to recognize as A-international for the records?

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which matches to recognize as A-international for the records?

Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 4th, 2009, 11:58 am #1

I think most of us will agree FIFA sources (i.e. its website) are not the best to find out which matches really are official A internationals. Most of us keep their own archives with own criteria which matches to count.
Wouldn't it be a good idea that all of us will put their criteria on this topic? Here are my criteria for counting a match official A:• Both FA’s regard a match as such.• Both teams played a friendly (tournament) match with its full strength national A-team. At least one of both countries regards the match official (or announced (to FIFA) this match to be A international).• All World Cup and Continental Cup matches, including qualifiers.
For post 1956 matches concerning European nations I added follwing:• only matches regarded official A by both national FA’s.
Last edited by Fast Midfielder on December 10th, 2013, 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Joined: October 31st, 2006, 5:16 pm

January 4th, 2009, 4:05 pm #2

I think if we have the lineups, we can decide ourselves whether to count the matches as official (for example, if an FA decides not to include a match because of a poor performance, then we can see that it was their normal national team, and include it as an A match. In this situation, I don't think it matters if either FA counts it as official. If both teams play with their normal national team players, the match should be regarded as official - regardless of what the FAs have to say (as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes). As you have found yourself (with Israel 7-1 Finland), there seems to be no reason why Finland should not count the match, yet they don't - so we should just ignore this fact, and count it as an A match anyway, especially if we know the team lineup.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 4th, 2009, 4:30 pm #3

You have a point indeed to count a match if both sides field their strongest sides :idea: . To me this sounds logical and will make things easier. The only reason I have not choosen this option is: if both FA's don't count a mach, who are others to do so? Just like if both FA's regard a match who are others (FIFA in particular) to deny so?
Does your statement means you also want to include matches regarded inofficial by both FA's? in the 1925-1939 era Netherlands and Belgium played 7 inofficial matches. In 1925 (1-1) and 1926 (Belgium won 5-1) Netherland played with a weakened side, because prior to these matches the arrangement was to play an inofficial match. In 1929 N won 1-0, in 1930 (4-1 for B), 1932 (B won 3-2 and N won 3-2), in 1939 N won 5-2 both sides fielded its strongest XI.
On 11 June 1939 Netherland 4-1 Yugoslavia was played in Amsterdam. Netherland fielded 10 regulars and 18 year old Abe Lenstra, who made his official debut in 1940. YU fielded eight players of the team that beat England one week earlier.
How do you think about the War Time and Victory Games played by the Britisch nations? At least I count the Victory games England and Scotland played in 1945 and 1946 for both sides.
To me the golden rule is: in case of controversy. A match should be counted for both sides or none of them. In order to make fair rankings.
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Joined: October 31st, 2006, 5:16 pm

January 4th, 2009, 10:05 pm #4

I think if both teams have agreed to send a 'weakened' team as you say, then it should be treated as unofficial, or a B match.
To answer your question - "If both FAs don't count a match, who are others to do so?" - Well, in this case, 'others' are intelligent, rational people, who can study the lineup, see that the players are full national team players, and make an objective decision based solely on this. As statisticians/historians, people interested in facts - we do not have any political agenda, and should therefore be fair in our decisions - which will sometimes involve saying that the FA is wrong (For example, East Germany not including the matches just because they lost is clearly wrong, and there should be no hesitation when making that decision when presented with the facts).
I think there probably has to be some kind of 'cut-off' point, such as "A starting lineup must contain at least 6 players who are regular internationals", and then we would have to establish what "regular" meant - played in half of his country's recent games? Then we would have to establish what 'recent' meant! So, it is not an easy decision, but i think we have to be uniform, and use the same rule for all.
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Ali
Joined: November 5th, 2006, 10:55 am

January 5th, 2009, 6:05 am #5

How can you define a strong team( or line up)..?? it's just partial, a national trainer can use some youth players To test in a friendly game and it can still be an A game....we have to understand that Football isn't a science, that lineups can vary due to numerous reasons " injuries, trainer choices.." so , as a matter of fact, we'll never reach a top notch team, because players are human beings and can't always be the best....So your definition of an A game, can't be based on this criterea....
Anyway, i see that it's mainly the job of FIFA, and the FAs involved, it's up to consider if it is an official game or not, since FIFA created FIFA days to compete, so i think it's more official when FIFA consider it so
and i can give an exemple to prove what i just said, Tunisia played a friendly game against Italy on 2004 , and we lost 0/4 although we didn't play with the " top notch team" ( ES Tunis and ES Sahel players didn't play due to African Clubs Cup, as some professional players who played in foreign countries had their vacations at the time of the game..), but we considered it as an A game, by both sides and by FIFA as an A game, even we can say that Tunisia played with a B team, who didn't have the strentgh to make one attack, against a full sided Italy ( Del Piero, Totti, Pirlo, Cannavaro, Buffon...)
Thank you
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Ali
Joined: November 5th, 2006, 10:55 am

January 5th, 2009, 12:57 pm #6

Never Mind.......but what do you think of what i said?
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 5th, 2009, 1:09 pm #7

Dear Ali,
here my answers: "How can you define a strong team( or line up)..?? it's just partial, a national trainer can use some youth players To test in a friendly game and it can still be an A game....we have to understand that Football isn't a science, that lineups can vary due to numerous reasons " injuries, trainer choices.." so , as a matter of fact, we'll never reach a top notch team, because players are human beings and can't always be the best....So your definition of an A game, can't be based on this criterea.... "
That's very true. And a lot of full A internationals that everyone regard official A - in particular the friendlies - have been such kind of matches.
"i see that it's mainly the job of FIFA, and the FAs involved, it's up to consider if it is an official game or not, since FIFA created FIFA days to compete, so i think it's more official when FIFA consider it so."
Here I don't agree. Read my item about Norway 7-0 France, 11 June 1922 issue. I think it's childish why FIFA, after insisting by FFF, deleted this match.
"Tunisia played a friendly game against Italy on 2004 , and we lost 0/4 although we didn't play with the " top notch team" ( ES Tunis and ES Sahel players didn't play due to African Clubs Cup, as some professional players who played in foreign countries had their vacations at the time of the game..), but we considered it as an A game, by both sides and by FIFA as an A game, even we can say that Tunisia played with a B team, who didn't have the strentgh to make one attack, against a full sided Italy ( Del Piero, Totti, Pirlo, Cannavaro, Buffon...)"
This is an "A"match. My country, Netherland, also played for the reason you meant with weakened sides. 1995 N 0-1 Portugal, without 8 players from Ajax. 1999 N 1-2 Morocco, without 6 players from Barcelona. A lot of such matches have ben played and are regarded official A by everybody. In the 1960s NL played many official A matches without the likes of Ajax, as they refused to play for the national team because the club had other priorities. And this are just NL examples. Hundreds of such matches have been played.
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Joined: November 3rd, 2006, 5:58 am

January 5th, 2009, 2:32 pm #8

The discussed question will never be solved in as satisfying way as we wish. I would tend to flexible rational criteria promoted above by Mark. Pay attention, Midfielder, you are a little bit inconsistent by yourself. Should we leave the matter to FA's whether they regard the match, as in the case of mentioned Tunisia-Italy, or should we rather assess the strenght of the teams? If the latter it must work in both directions. Then what to do with such a match as Serbia-Poland last December? Both sides played with completely understrength (second or third, anyway experimental) line-ups then and both consider it official unanimously.
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Joined: November 3rd, 2006, 11:49 am

January 5th, 2009, 2:38 pm #9

If both sides consider it full international, there is no doubt and also if it is an official competition for A national teams, just like CECAFA, COSAFA..
In the case of CHAN none of these games can be taken in consideration, but this leaves a lot of doubtful games.... And I do not think it is a question of life and death..... just like rankings are not that important....
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 5th, 2009, 3:05 pm #10

siepacz. You are right that the discussed question will never be solved in a satisfying way as we wish, because for doubtful matches there always will be room for discussion.
In case of both nations regard a match official, like Serbia - Poland you mention, I think we should not even use a piece of breath for discussion. Like the Serbia - Poland match you point, or the Netherlands - Portugal match from 1995 I pointed.
Let's focus discussion only on matches which are regarded official by one nation and which are not regarded official by the other one. However I agree with Mark if he says ,,I think there probably has to be some kind of 'cut-off' point, such as "A starting lineup must contain at least 6 players who are regular internationals", and then we would have to establish what "regular" meant - played in half of his country's recent games? Then we would have to establish what 'recent' meant! So, it is not an easy decision, but i think we have to be uniform, and use the same rule for all.''
pieter, what do you mean with CHAN?
I agree with you this is not a question of life and death. Only how can we make our archives as good as possible.
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Joined: November 3rd, 2006, 5:58 am

January 5th, 2009, 3:07 pm #11

It's not a question of life and death for sure. It's much much more important than that. :-)
Quotation from Shankly is not absurd in this place. It's a matter of historical researches and a historian has always to categorize events in order to be fair to facts.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 5th, 2009, 3:17 pm #12

siepacz, as we Holland say: "you hit the nail on its head" by quoting Shankly.
The reason I started this discussion is because I am sure we all want to make our archives as good as possible. And I think we can help each other.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 6th, 2009, 10:16 am #13

I think you can never write a simple set of rules for what is an official international match. Pretty much any rule you can think of, there are examples to contradict it.
The national FAs are all run by different people so have different opinions. Even the same FA has different opinions in different years.
Some FAs do not keep or even know which matches they played historically, so how can we rely on their opinions?
Mark says above that if we have the lineups, then we can make our own decisions: true to an extent, but firstly as we all know we do not have historical lineups for many games outside Europe and South America, and secondly you also would need to know tangential information, for example which players were injured/retired/unavailable, who was playing well for their club, etc.
My personal policy is to try and include everything that could be considered an international match, and let the reader decide themselves.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 6th, 2009, 10:17 am #14

Fast Midfielder wrote:The reason I started this discussion is because I am sure we all want to make our archives as good as possible. And I think we can help each other.
This much I agree!
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 6th, 2009, 3:52 pm #15

After reading all reactions, I think most of us agree to count matches if:
• Both FA’s regard a match as such.• All World Cup and Continental Cup matches, including qualifiers.
I think won't be nececary anymore to discuss about anymore. ->
->
• Both teams played a friendly (tournament) match with its full strength national A-team. At least one of both countries regards the match official (or announced (to FIFA) this match to be A international).I better could define this different. Ali is very right indeed if he says: how can you define a strong team? You hit the nail on his head to say that due on circumstances national teams do not play with its strongest team. Sometimes a coach wants to test players, sometimes players are injured and sometimes a club team keeps it likes as they have other interests.
By the way: in the 1950-54 era something bizarre occured in Dutch soccer. Due to very, very strict KNVB amateur rules the Dutch team at the time was someting like a weakened B-sides. Yet both KNVB and its opponents regard these matches official, so they are. -> A match played by far the strongest side that represented Netherlands is not official. See article France 1-2 Dutch professionals, 12 March 1953. :idea:
->
For post 1956 matches concerning European nations I added follwing:
• only matches regarded official A by both national FA’s.Here I made a terrible mistake. I meant post 1956 Olympic Games matches. :idea: I think if countries lable their Olympic team not as A team (i.e. Yugoslavia 1956-64 and Bulgaria 1968 ) they should not consider their Olympic Team matches as A.
Last edited by Fast Midfielder on December 10th, 2013, 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 31st, 2006, 5:16 pm

January 6th, 2009, 5:33 pm #16

I agree with the majority of the above except:
Fast Midfielder wrote: I think if countries lable their Olympic team not as A team (i.e. Yugoslavia 1956-64 and Bulgaria 196 they should not consider their Olympic Team matches as A.
If the Olympic team has the same players as the normal A-team, we MUST consider it as the A-team. If both teams play with their normal A players, but both teams call it "Olympic", we should STILL consider it an A-match. For example, if Bulgaria play Romania in Olympic Qualifying, but both teams are exactly the same as for a normal A-match, then why should we not count it as an A-match?
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 6th, 2009, 5:40 pm #17

Yugoslavia 1956: The A team played England at Wembley on 28 Nov 1956, the Olympic team in Melbourne v USA on the very same day.
Yugoslavia 1964: Olympic Team played at Olympics on 13, 15, 18, 20, 22 Oct and additional match with Israel on 28 Oct. A team played 25 Oct in Budapest v Hungary.
Bulgaria 1968: Olympic Team played in Mexico final on 26 Oct. The next dat A team played in Sofia
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 6th, 2009, 5:45 pm #18

Mark "For example, if Bulgaria play Romania in Olympic Qualifying, but both teams are exactly the same as for a normal A-match, then why should we not count it as an A-match?"
Here you have a point. I agree with you.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 8th, 2009, 3:48 pm #19

Mark wrote iearlier: "I think there probably has to be some kind of 'cut-off' point, such as "A starting lineup must contain at least 6 players who are regular internationals", and then we would have to establish what "regular" meant - played in half of his country's recent games? Then we would have to establish what 'recent' meant! So, it is not an easy decision, but i think we have to be uniform, and use the same rule for all."
Here I have a so called tricky one, about saying on which side of the cutting point this match should be. The match is labelled as Netherlands B - Finland and played on 31-10-1951 in Amsterdam Olympisch Stadion (NL won 4-1). KNVB regards this match as official for B-team.
The line up: Dré Saris; Aad de Jong, Roel Bak, Henk Schijvenaar; Piet Fanger, Henk Appel; Louis van den Bogert, Jampie Kuneman, Henk van de Langenberg, Mick Clavan, Piet van Overbeek.
some additional info: Four days earlier Netherlands 4- 4 Finland was played in Rotterdam. Dutch goalkeeper Piet Kraak (who was the regular golskeeper in the 1946-52 era) made that match three terrible mistakes that all resulted in a goal for Finland. So Kraak normally would have been replaced for the next match, four days later.
Dré Saris played according to KNVB archives one full international for NL. In 1949. Saris was in the 1949-51 most of the matches the reserve goalkeeper on the bench.
From the 46 players that made, according to KNVB, their full international debut in the 1950-54 era 33 players played 5 or less A internationals, 26 played 3 or less A.
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 8th, 2009, 6:16 pm #20

For Israel I coped with this dilemma by classifying the games to different categories:
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/isra-intres-class.html
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 8th, 2009, 6:27 pm #21

mcruic wrote:I think if we have the lineups, we can decide ourselves whether to count the matches as official (for example, if an FA decides not to include a match because of a poor performance, then we can see that it was their normal national team, and include it as an A match. In this situation, I don't think it matters if either FA counts it as official. If both teams play with their normal national team players, the match should be regarded as official - regardless of what the FAs have to say (as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes). As you have found yourself (with Israel 7-1 Finland), there seems to be no reason why Finland should not count the match, yet they don't - so we should just ignore this fact, and count it as an A match anyway, especially if we know the team lineup.
"as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes":
I don't agree. Until 1964 all the Asian Nations Cup games lasted only 80 minutes. However they are recognized as official by all the involving FAs and by FIFA. It will be absurd not to count them.
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 8th, 2009, 6:28 pm #22

mcruic wrote:I think if we have the lineups, we can decide ourselves whether to count the matches as official (for example, if an FA decides not to include a match because of a poor performance, then we can see that it was their normal national team, and include it as an A match. In this situation, I don't think it matters if either FA counts it as official. If both teams play with their normal national team players, the match should be regarded as official - regardless of what the FAs have to say (as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes). As you have found yourself (with Israel 7-1 Finland), there seems to be no reason why Finland should not count the match, yet they don't - so we should just ignore this fact, and count it as an A match anyway, especially if we know the team lineup.
"as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes":
I don't agree. Until 1964 all the Asian Nations Cup games lasted only 80 minutes. However they are recognized as official by all the involving FAs and by FIFA. It will be absurd not to count them.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 9th, 2009, 12:10 am #23

28-05-1969 v Greece was played by Greece -23
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 9th, 2009, 3:34 am #24

Not accurate:
1. Georgios Dedes was 26 years old (born 1943) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgos_Dedes
2. The coach was Greek national coach Dan Georgiadis.
3. One of my sources wrote: "This will be the return game between the 2 teams who drew 3-3 last March in Jaffa. However this evening Greek players with age of under 23 will appear on behalf of the Greek NATIONAL team. By doing so the Greek FA gave up to the top clubs who asked to release their stars as the league is about to end"
So maybe in fact it was Greece U-23 (strenghtened by one senior player), but officially it was Greece national team (though not recognized as official by the Greek FA).
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 9th, 2009, 1:02 pm #25

I saw in Greek records this match was classified as official U23 international. However, if the Greek FA intended its full A team to play you are right. But FIFA allows in such cases to change arrangements untill 48 hours beforet he kick-off.
Probably a similar kind of situation occured in the 1986-87 season as Dutch and Czech FA arranged two full A internationals between both nation that season. 10-09-1986 in Prage and 15-04-1987 in Rotterdam.
The first match was played between bouth nation's full side. About two months before the return Dutch FA changed the arrangent by replacing A team by Olympic team. The venue moved to Leeuwarden.
Both Dutch and Czech FA does not regard this return match as official A international. In Dutch records it counts as Olympic team international. None of the Dutch, and Czechs, did not even thought about including this match on the list of full A international.
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Joined: October 31st, 2006, 5:16 pm

January 9th, 2009, 1:05 pm #26

yaniv wrote:
mcruic wrote:
"as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes":
I don't agree. Until 1964 all the Asian Nations Cup games lasted only 80 minutes. However they are recognized as official by all the involving FAs and by FIFA. It will be absurd not to count them.
Yes, I agree. I just meant to say that the game lasted however long it was meant to last for. Some early African games (Gossage Cup I think) lasted only 60 minutes.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 3:48 am #27

yaniv,
please can you tell me why following matches are not regarded official A bij Israelian FA?
03/05/1954 Northern Rhodesia Away 0-0
05/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 1-2
09/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 2-1
13/09/1967 Romania Away 1-3
25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 5:53 am #28

I don't know.
IFA is so inconsistent in deciding which game is official and which is not.
It's not only in games against national teams but also against U-23 and B teams.
For example:
17/2/1971 Italy U-23 vs Israel 2-0 is official
9/4/1969 Israel vs Italy U-23 2-0 is unofficial
19/10/1966 Holland U-23 vs Israel 4-1 is official
8/9/1971 Holland U-23 vs Israel 2-0 is unofficial
And a bigger problem is games which were played by Israel Olympic team. Some of them appear in IFA "A" games list while others don't.
For example, those 2 were friendlies:
18/4/1978 Israel (Olympic) vs Holland Olympic 2-0 is official
13/2/1978 Israel (Olympic) vs Denmark (national) 1-0 is unofficial
Another game which is official for IFA:
2/1/1964 Hong Kong League XI vs Israel 0-3
Hong Kong League XI consisted of players from HK and Taiwan.
And there are many other cases.
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 6:14 am #29

More than 90% of the Israeli players in these games were internationals.
Line-ups:
03/05/1954 Northern Rhodesia Away 0-0
05/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 1-2
09/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 2-1
No info unfortunately...
Maybe the reason that IFA didn't recognize the games is that Northern and Southern Rhodesia were not indepndent countries. But I don't know.
13/9/1967 Romania Away 1-3
Itzhak Visoker - Dani Shmulevich-Rom, Itzhak Drucker, Shmuel Rosenthal, Menahem Bello, Moshe Asis, Giora Spiegel, Mordechai Spiegler, Rahamim Talbi, George Borba, Reuven Young
25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
Haim Levin (Yehiel Hameiri, 38 ) - Shraga Bar, Zvi Rozen, Itzhak Drucker, Menahem Bello - Shmuel Rosenthal, Mordechai Spiegler, Giora Spiegel - Rahamim Talbi, Yehoshua Feigenbaum, Reuven Young. Substitutes: Arie Peled, Gidon Goldberg
31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
Yehiel Hameiri - Shraga Bar, Yeshaayahu Schwager (Shimon Ben-Yehonatan, 88 ), Shmuel Rosenthal, Menahem Bello - Giora Spiegel, Mordechai Spiegler, Roni Shuruk - Rahamim Talbi, Yehoshua Feigenbaum, Reuven Young
23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
Haim Levin - Shraga Bar, Zvi Rozen, Shmuel Rosenthal, Menahem Bello - Giora Spiegel (Itzhak Shum, 46), Mordechai Spiegler, Roni Shuruk - Rahamim Talbi, Yehoshua Feigenbaum, Reuven Young
20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
Itzik Visoker - Avraham Gindin, David Primo, Zvi Rozen, George Borba - Itzhak Shum, Yehuda Shaharabani, Yehoshua Feigenbaum - Gidi Damti, Moshe Onana, Rahamim Talbi (Itzhak Blum, 55)
28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
Itzik Visoker - Avraham Gindin, David Primo, Zvi Rozen, George Borba - Itzhak Shum, Yehuda Shaharabani - Gidi Damti, Zvi Farkas, Meir Barad, Moshe Onana
04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0
Arie Haviv - Shlomo Kirat, Haim Bar, Itzhak Shum, Noah Einstein - Yaacov Ekhoiz, Dori Almog (Nissim Cohen, 46), Gadi Machness - Beni Tabak, Israel Fogel, Rafi Eliyahu (Beni Lam, 65)
Austria didn't field it's best players, so maybe IFA didn't see it as played against a national team.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 7:12 am #30

not being independent seems not to be a reason the matches v both Rhodesias were not counted official bij IFA. May be beacuase they were no FIFA member?
It is also strange IFA did not recognize the other matches. It certainly could not have been they decided not to do so afterwards because of the result (like former DDR sometimes did). 1-0 win over Sweden in 1969, 2-1 win over Romania in 1972 and 1-0 win over Austria in 1981 were fine results at the time.
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 10:41 am #31

13/9/1967 Romania Away 1-3
Romania: Necula Raducanu - Dan Anca (Ioachim Popescu), Ion Nunweiller, Ion Barbu, Mihai Mocanu, Vasile Gergely, Iordan Angelescu (Lucian Strîmbeanu), Mircea Lucescu, Florea Dumitrache, Constantin Iancu, Tiberiu Kallo (Aurelian Cuperman)
If I'm not wrong only 7 of the players were internationals at the date of the game.
I have a newspaper report, which wrote (in Hebrew):
"Israel national team lost its friendly today to the Romanian League selection 1-3 ... The game was unofficial though the Israeli flag was flown and the teams wore their national clothings"
25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
A report I have wrote that it was played against Romania League Stars selection but when looking at the Romanian line-up it seems exactly like the national team.
Romania: Gheorghe Gornea (Ilie Datcu) - Lajos Satmareanu, Alexandru Boc, Ion Barbu (Nicolae Pantea), Mihai Mocanu - Vasile Gergely, Cornel Dinu - Mircea Lucescu, Emerich Dembrovschi, Florea Dumitrache (Favius Domide), Radu Nunweiller
Maybe both FAs decided before the game that it would not be official, otherwise I can't understand why Romania stood as "Romania League Stars selection". But it's not clear to me why Israel stood as "Israel national team" if this is the case.
31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
My report wrote "Romanian League Selection".
Romania: Gheorghe Gornea - Lajos Satmareanu, Alexandru Boc, Cornel Dinu, Mihai Mocanu (Augustin Deleanu) - Dan Anca, Radu Nunweiller - Nicolae Pantea, Emerich Dembrovschi, Floreaz Dumitrache (Flavius Domide), Mircea Lucescu.
Again, looks like Romania national team.
23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
My report wrote that Sweden fielded 7 reserve players but there is no clue about why it's not official for Israel. A report for the game of 18/2/1969 against Sweden wrote that the return match would be played on 23/2. Maybe IFA decided afterwards not to list the game because Sweden didn't field its best team.
Sweden: Sven-Gunnar Larsson - Jan Karlsson, Leif Målberg, Björn Nordqvist (Krister Kristensson, 46), Roland Grip (Hans Selander, 46) - Jan Olsson, Anders Ljungberg - Sten Pålsson, Rolf Andersson, Ove Eklund, Lars-Göran Fjordestam
20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
Romania: Stere Adamache (Vasile Stan, 46) - Lajos Satmareanu, Alexandru Boc, Dumitru Antonescu, Ion Velea, Ion Dumitru (Emerich Dembrovschi, 20), Cornel Dinu, Rad Nunweiller, Mircea Lucescu, Nicolae Dobrin (Iuliu Hajnal, 46), Florea Dumitrache (Mircea Sandu, 46)
A newspaper report wrote (in Hebrew):
"Every win is sweet even if it's achieved in an unofficial game, in a friendly, and even if the opponent chooses to name himself 'Romanian League Selection' ... But even if the game was held according to the protocol and played as an international game between the national teams of Israel and Romania ... "
28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
No clue in the newapapers.
Romania: Raducanu Necula - Lajos Satmareanu, Stefan Sames, Cornel dinu, Iuliu Hajnal - Ion Dumitru, Aurel Beldeanu - Radu Troi, Florea Dumitrache (Vasile Aelenei, 70), Anghel Iordanescu (Constantin Dumitriu, 80), Dumitru Marcu
04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0
"According to the agreement between the 2 FAs the game will be defined as an international competition between the national squads of Israel and Austria. The meaning is that the national anthems will not be played before the game and that there will be no official report to FIFA. This arrangement was set after a request from the Austrian FA, that is limited by the clubs in Austria in releasing players to international games (but not to international training games)."
Austria: Herbert Feurer - Johann Dihanich, Erich Obermayer, Heribert Weber, Josef Degeorgi (Nagl, 65) - Felix Gasselich, Ernst Baumeister, Kreuz - Walter Schachner (Christian Keglevits, 46), Johann Krankl, Gernot Jurtin (Gröss, 72)
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 11:53 am #32

thanks for your reply. I think that with the exception of the match played on 28-03-1973 they all should be considered official A.
Not regarding a match because the vistors flag has flown (seems ridiculous). But the teams wore national clothings. So what?
I think, but this is a personal opinion, if a national team play as "League XI" or "All League Stars" it can be regarded as A if.
- it is the usual national team
- all players have the nationality of the country they represent.
It seems for the match v Austria only one club did not released its players. That is no reason for not regarding a match official. Elsewhere on the forum I worte about the 1995 Netherlands 0-1 Portugal match. Ajax players were released, 8 of the national team were from Ajax which was, as you know, at the time Europe's and World's best club team. Nevertheless Dutch FA even did not thought about cancelling this match as A.
By the way. How many official A matches have been played with clubs that missed players from one particular club?
I think IFA was too polite not awarding these matches as official A.
About the Sweden match in 1969 we all can have different thoughts. But the Swedes played before and after 1969 more matches in which as least 7 reserve players were fielding in the starting team. Deleting a match afterwards seem to me in general as something not done.
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 12:31 pm #33

I agree with you, except for 28/3/1973. I don't see any difference between it to the other games so I think it should be listed too.
I think that the following game should be listed too:
25/3/1970 Ethiopia - Israel 1-1
Israel decided to field reserve players and insisted that the game would not be official in spite of a previous agreement with the Ethiopians. They suggested the game would be between Jerusalem XI and Adis Ababa XI. The Ethiopians refused to that and threatened to cancel the game. Finally the Israelis gave up but the Israeli coach decided to field many reserve players anyway.
The game doesn't appear in IFA list of games.
Does anyone can confidently say if it's recognized as official by the Ethiopian FA?
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 1:01 pm #34

I only made an exception for the 28-03-1973 match as you wrote there was no clue.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to ask IFA to recognize these matches afterwards as official A, thus awarding Israel players caps for these matches afterwards?
I have send Norwegian FA a request after their reaction about the Norway 7-0 France match of 11 June 1922.
Today I also addressed to Dutch FA for such matter concerning some inofficial matches played by Netherland.
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 1:58 pm #35

The only reason I didn't do it was that I (almost) finished to compile the unofficial games list only lastly. I have to check 2 more games.
I think that IFA should revise all its list and not only these games.
Games that should be added:
03/05/1954 Northern Rhodesia Away 0-0
05/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 1-2
09/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 2-1
10/05/1966 Finland B Away 0-1
12/05/1966 Finland U-23 Away 2-0
13/09/1967 Romania Away 1-3
25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
09/04/1969 Italy U-23 Home 2-0
23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
25/03/1970 Ethiopia Away 1-1
08/09/1971 Netherlands U-23 Away 0-2
07/11/1972 Argentina B Home 3-2
20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0
08/02/1988 Poland Home 2-1
Games that should be removed:
02/01/1964 Hong Kong League XI Away 3-0
18/04/1978 Netherlands Olympic Home 2-0 *
15/02/1983 Belgium Olympic Home 3-2 *
08/06/1983 West Germany Olympic Away 0-2 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
30/10/1983 Portugal Olympic Home 1-0 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
20/11/1983 West Germany Olympic Home 0-1 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
11/01/1984 Portugal Olympic Away 1-2 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
* played by Israel Olympic team
The problem with the Rhodesias games is that the Israeli line-ups are not available...
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 2:08 pm #36

Do you think they will revise it one day? But why do you want to count some matches as i.e. Italy U23 and Argentina as well?
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 2:14 pm #37

Because IFA policy is to include games against U-23, Olympic, B and even amateur teams.
I'm doubtful if they will revise their list, although some years ago they added 2 forgotten games against USA from 15/9/1968 and 25/9/1968, and the game against Thailand from 9/2/1977 (which is not recognized by the Thai FA).
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 2:20 pm #38

Please refer to http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/isra-intres-class.html.
I'm not sure in which category should the games of 14/10/1948 and 17/10/1948 be listed
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 2:34 pm #39

it depends on where you want to have the so called cut-off point.
you wrote:
14/10/1948 USA XI Away 1-4 [a]
17/10/1948 USA XI Away 2-3
[a] USA XI consisted of USA Olympic strengthened by some professional players.
USA XI stood as "New York All-Star Professionals", actually USA national team without some of its key players.
in case of a) I would first ask: how much Olympic team has been strenghtened. I think this situation is similar with i.e. Netherlands B 4-1 Finland, 31-10-1951. Dutch team is labelled as B, but actually this was the second match in four days between both nations. Team was changed on many places.
in case of b) if this is actual USA national team without some of its key players I would say it must be added. This match to me looks similar like Netherlands 1-0 Luxembourg, 27-03-1948. Dutch FA labelled this team as B, but it actually was A team without 2 key players. Nearly the very same Dutch selection went four months later to the London Olympics.
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 2:42 pm #40

14/10/1948
USA: Archie Strimel - Joseph Rego-Costa, Manuel Martin, Joseph Ferreira, Jimmy Smith, Walter Bahr, Bob Gormley, Ed Souza, Rolf Valtin, John Souza (Sullivan), Ben McLaughlin (Werner Mieth)
17/10/1948
USA: Gene Olaff - John O'Connell, John Kelly, Carlie Gallogly, Sol Eisner, Walter Bahr, William Sheppell (Ben Wattman), Bob Gormley, Jack Hynes, Carl Ericson, Ben McLaughlin
I think we need an American soccer expert to say what kind of teams stood for the game.
Another question is who was the coach in the game. If it was not USA national coach then the games can't be considered as played by USA.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 2:53 pm #41

An American expert can say the best as USA hardly played matches that period. He also can answer why matches played at the Olympic Games were not regarded official by USA FA, but some friendlies they played just after the tournament was played they registeren full A.
The coach issue may be a bit tricky one. Please watch following.
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesu/usa-intres.html
Team USA hardly came in action these years. A different name may have several causes: was the coach an interim, did he took another job before the next international was played after 17-10-1948?
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 10th, 2009, 2:59 pm #42

Those 2 games are unofficial for the US Soccer (USA FA). Please have a look at http://www.rsssf.com/tablesu/usa-intres-det69.html
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 10th, 2009, 3:11 pm #43

quite obvious
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Joined: April 1st, 2008, 3:47 pm

January 11th, 2009, 12:48 pm #44

08/02/1988 Israel - Poland 2-1
Officially played by Israel B, but Israel didn't have B team at that time.
The coach was national coach Miljenko Mihić who used a mixed national and U-23 team. 8 of the starting 11 belonged to the national squad and 3 were young players. Of the 7 used substitutes, 5 were from the U-23 squad and 2 from the national squad.
Israel: Adir Shamir (Boni Ginzburg, 46) - Shimon Menahem* (Raz Rabinovich*, 46), Efraim Davidi, Menashe Shimonov (Yaacov Segal, 46), Yaacov Hilel* (Meir Kadosh*, 46) - Lior Rosenthal, David Gordana* (Shlomi Amar*, 46), Eli Cohen (Meir Tsarfati*, 46), Yaacov Schwartz - Nir Levin, Eli Driks (Roni Levi*, 46)
* denotes that the player belonged to the U-23 squad.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 11th, 2009, 1:19 pm #45

If 8 of the starting 11 belonged to the national squad and 3 were young players, I think B-team is not a good classification. I would say A team. As Ali wrote earlier. Sometimes a coach want to try some new players. This happens in particular in friendly matches.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 13th, 2009, 12:09 pm #46

To find the cuutin point to count a match A or not, following match is a very good one to pay attention. Please also watch Netherlands pre 1950 and post 1954 line ups.
Paris, 12 maart 1953: France – Dutch pros 1-2 (1-0). 34. Saunier 1-0, 58. De Harder 1-1, 81. Appel 1-2. Referee: Eischen. Attendance 40.000.
France: Ruminski; Gianessi, Jonquet, Marche; Penverne, Gaulon; Kopa, Ujlaki, Saunier, Gardien, Deladerièrre.
Dutch pros: De Munck; Vreken, Van der Hart, De Vroet; Schaap, De Kubber; Appel, Timmermans, Van Geen, Rijvers, De Harder.
Charity match for victims 1953 Flood which costed 1835 Dutch lives. This match is one of the most legendaric one ever played by a Dutch side. This match was final encouragement to introduce professional soccer in the Netherlands, which started 14 August 1954.
This Dutch team was the strongest one that represented Netherlands in the 1950-54 era.
Initially French FA invited the Dutch national team for a charilty match 12 March 1953 at Parc des Princes, but NL already arranged an extra match with Denmark on 7 March in Rotterdam, which was aslo a charity match for the victims of the Flood that tempested Southwestern part of Netherland some weeks before. KNVB turned down the French offer. Officially because of a full agenda, but de facto they fear a very heavy defeat.
Thus Dutch professional players from French clubs asked FFF if they could play France. KNVB chairman Karel Lotsy tried everything this match did not took place, he even ordered the FFF not to play the official Dutch national anthem before the match, but the French had other thoughts.
Even though not an official international match this is one of the most legendary matches ever played by a Dutch team. Most important objective of this match: raising money for the victims of the Flood. The players of the Dutch profesionals also offered KNVB to play a charity match against full Dutch national team. KNVB turned down that offer as Mr. Lotsy said in NL not a single dog was interested in professional soccer. Another reason KNVB turned down that offer was that they fear heavy defeat for Dutch team that used to play at the time.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 14th, 2009, 4:12 am #47

As I said before, I think for any set of rules to determine if a match is "official", there will always be examples to contradict them.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 14th, 2009, 12:04 pm #48

I totally agree with you. I only put this match on the topic becuase this one is an example of a very contradictional one, also becuase of the situation in football Netherlands at the time. But as I think most of soccer lovers outside the Netherlands (where this match really is one of the most legendaric in history) and France don't know about the match, I wanted to inform them .
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 14th, 2009, 12:54 pm #49

I agree, it's always better to include information (even if labelled as unofficial), than exclude it so it remains "hidden".
Another case that is usually contradictory is that of the England Amateur team's games in the first part of the 20th century.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 14th, 2009, 2:03 pm #50

To me the difference between England full NT and England amateur NT is very clear. In the first part of 20th century England full NT usually contained about 3 amateur players. So matches played by England amateur NT I don't consider full A international.
I think outside UK (i.e. IFFHS/FIFA) one make crucial mistake to label England full NT as England professional NT. England full NT is open to all players, England amateur NT to amateurs only.
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