which matches to recognize as A-international for the records?

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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 13th, 2016, 5:58 am #801

I think somehow even FIFA is not FIFA competable. Take a look to the various FIFA Handbooks, FIFA Bulletins and FIFA Website. All (somehow) produced by FIFA and they all show controversies.

Now going back to unofficial matches. I remember somewhere Mark or Neil wrote that national FA's even make distinction between unofficial international matches as some are official unofficial. Nevertheless, isn't the unofficial status not strange? Let's only pay attention to unofficial matches played between two teams who undoubtfully have been A-national teams (or both teams fielded their regular full NT). Regarding Holland (and Belgium) five unofficial matches against Belgium in the 1929-39 era (of which at least three appear in various FIFA Bulettins; I have no Bulletins available regarding the periode the other two have been played, on 14-02-1932 and 10-12-1939). As the author of "Oranje Toen en Nu" wrote in his books, these matches were of the same kind as the official ones.

Imho it would be fair also count such matches as actually there was no difference with the official matches. BTW does an unofficial individual (who is not registered) not exist only becuase he is not registered?
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

January 13th, 2016, 11:58 am #802

To try to improve things, if I was FIFA I would immediately create two different departments. The first one dedicated to researching, analysing and classifying international games in order to obtain a list of "A" matches as much as possible close to a thorough and reliable level. The second one dedicated to drawing up an acceptable and consistent ranking system.For the first one I would appoint Barrie, Fast Midfielder, Karel, Neil and SDb. But these are just the first names, I've surely forgot many others. For the second one I would appoint ctr, Kaizeler and Mark.This would be a good investment for FIFA.
Last edited by Luca on January 13th, 2016, 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 13th, 2016, 4:27 pm #803

Luca wrote:
I am sure that in a couple of countries of Africa, Asia and the Caribbean region, records were lost over the years when FAs changed their staff
members or when natural disasters destroyed the buildings.
It is not only the physical loss of records, but also administrative changes, lack of inventories etc.  Even if all the actual records survive, they may be piled in disorganized boxes, and there may be no staff there nowadays who can actually find a given document.  
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 13th, 2016, 4:29 pm #804

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Imho it would be fair also count such matches as actually there was no difference with the official matches. BTW does an unofficial individual (who is not registered) not exist only becuase he is not registered?
He may exist, but he might not be able to receive state welfare benefits, or healthcare, or rights to vote etc.   There are plenty of illegal immigrants in most "Western" countries.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 13th, 2016, 5:10 pm #805

Luca wrote:
To try to improve things, if I was FIFA I would immediately create two different departments. The first one dedicated to researching, analysing and classifying international games in order to obtain a list of "A" matches as much as possible close to a thorough and reliable level. The second one dedicated to drawing up an acceptable and consistent ranking system.For the first one I would appoint Barrie, Fast Midfielder, Karel, Neil and SDb. But these are just the first names, I've surely forgot many others. For the second one I would appoint ctr, Kaizeler and Mark.This would be a good investment for FIFA.
Oh, I assumed you guys were already all working for FIFA.   That's why I come here, mainly to undermine and insult you
I insist that Piet is appointed (but on the rankings committee, to annoy him!)
More seriously, FIFA did give a level of official recognition to the IFFHS in the past.   Since then, FIFA has in the past attempted (rather feebly) to do something like both your proposals.  The problem is that (in the first case particularly) they want the outcome immediately.   They just want to buy in somebody's database to replace an old one, as they did last time.   Whether there are errors and omissions involved, or whether it is really a "work in progress", is not their priority.  They are not interested in the research process, and I'm sure they don't understand what's involved in that anyway.   In this sense, their approach to the matter was a professional / business one.  In other words, accuracy and integrity can %+#$ off when a "quick fix" will do.  They just want to have any database to say they have one.
 More recently, FIFA did also appoint an outside researcher to review their database, about 6 years ago.  He did a decent job of that, but he was apparently not given any power to actually make changes, and it seems like the editor(s) did not accept his suggestions enough to do anything major about it.
Also in recent years, FIFA have relied largely on outside help for their fixtures/results updates.  Despite that they have well-paid people based at FIFA who are supposed to be able to do that, they are actually pretty useless without help from "amateurs"  (or let's say "semi-pros" - they are paid, but just pocket money).
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 14th, 2016, 6:23 am #806

More
seriously, FIFA did give a level of official recognition to the IFFHS
in the past.  Unfortunately regarding A-internationals this is up and including to 1920, but it was a good source which explained quite a lot.
Since then, FIFA has in the past attempted (rather
feebly) to do something like both your proposals.  The problem is that
(in the first case particularly) they want the outcome immediately. That's asking for a mess.
They just want to buy in somebody's database to replace an old one, as
they did last time. As we are talking about the person who I think you are talking about I can tell you his database relied quite heavily on Atlas Mondial de Football. He did not like to make adjustions if a certain match was not listed in that book.
  Whether there are errors and omissions involved,
or whether it is really a "work in progress", is not their priority. 
They are not interested in the research process, and I'm sure they don't
understand what's involved in that anyway.   In this sense, their
approach to the matter was a professional / business one.  In other
words, accuracy and integrity can %+#$ off when a "quick fix" will do. 
They just want to have any database to say they have one. In that case it was better to copy the results from their FIFA Bulletins or FIFA Handbooks. More
recently, FIFA did also appoint an outside researcher to review their
database, about 6 years ago.  He did a decent job of that, but he was
apparently not given any power to actually make changes, and it seems
like the editor(s) did not accept his suggestions enough to do anything
major about it. So why they hired this outside researcher. Reminds me on what many governing bodies in Holland to. They hire an advisor, let him write a report, pay him € 50-100 k for a job that takes maximum six months and drop it into a desk drawer.
Also in recent years, FIFA have relied largely on
outside help for their fixtures/results updates.  Despite that they
have well-paid people based at FIFA who are supposed to be able to do
that, they are actually pretty useless without help from "amateurs"  (or
let's say "semi-pros" - they are paid, but just pocket money). And they corrected errors if you informed them about. But if you asked them something they did not answer at all. That's why at some point I stopped informing them.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 14th, 2016, 5:13 pm #807

Fast Midfielder wrote:
More
seriously, FIFA did give a level of official recognition to the IFFHS
in the past.  Unfortunately regarding A-internationals this is up and including to 1920, but it was a good source which explained quite a lot.
Yes, although they published books for some countries going up to 1940, and in some of their magazines there was info post 1945.  But not in general. 
Fast Midfielder wrote:Reminds me on what many governing bodies in Holland to. They hire an advisor, let him write a report, pay him € 50-100 k for a job that takes maximum six months and drop it into a desk drawer.
Yes, you got the point exactly... and an even better part of your analogy is that the government itself does not always cooperate with the advisor, indeed, they may even withhold info from him (cf "Chilcot Inquiry").   Usually they [governments] just want to be seen to be doing *something*, but they don't necessarily care about what will actually come out of it.  
Fast Midfielder wrote:And they [FIFA] corrected errors if you informed them about. But if you asked them something they did not answer at all.
They also did not cite sources or give credit to named contributors. 
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 16th, 2016, 7:36 am #808

Luca wrote:
To try to improve things, if I was FIFA I would immediately create two different departments. The first one dedicated to researching, analysing and classifying international games in order to obtain a list of "A" matches as much as possible close to a thorough and reliable level. The second one dedicated to drawing up an acceptable and consistent ranking system.For the first one I would appoint Barrie, Fast Midfielder, Karel, Neil and SDb. But these are just the first names, I've surely forgot many others. For the second one I would appoint ctr, Kaizeler and Mark.This would be a good investment for FIFA.
You are modest not including yourself into one of the teams. You have researched the Olympic football part, so if one person is suitable for classifying Olympic football matches in category A and non-A it's you. You also are very good in searching online at old newspapers. So I would appoint you for the researching team. 
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 16th, 2016, 2:17 pm #809

Fast Midfielder wrote:
You are modest not including yourself into one of the teams.
I think Luca was aiming for the presidential role, e.g Blatterini.
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

January 17th, 2016, 4:57 am #810

Fast Midfielder wrote:
You are modest not including yourself into one of the teams. You have
researched the Olympic football part, so if one person is suitable for
classifying Olympic football matches in category A and non-A it's you.
You also are very good in searching online at old newspapers. So I would
appoint you for the researching team.
Thank you. Yes, I did a very good job there, but I think that on the whole your level of expertise about national team football is superior to mine.

My true “specialization” is in club football. UEFA has a very good historical archive on uefa.com, but it needs many minor corrections mainly about line ups and match venues. CONMEBOL, oddly, doesn't have any. All the prestigious South American competitions and protagonists from the past and from the present, deserve a thorough detailed study on conmebol.com. In Europe we know almost everything about players and coaches who have won the most important UEFA competitions. On the other hand, a lot of South American champions and coaches who have been decisive in prestigious wins in Intercontinental Cup, in Copa Libertadores and in Copa América are almost unknown. I'm sure in CONMEBOL archive there is a lot of interesting stuff, but at the moment it's not exploited enough.So if UEFA and/or CONMEBOL need a helping hand, I am available....
nfm24 wrote:
I think Luca was aiming for the presidential role, e.g Blatterini.
Or Gandelange.....
Last edited by Luca on January 17th, 2016, 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 17th, 2016, 5:41 am #811

OK, but now back to business. Would it be fair also to include unofficial matches as described here?
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Joined: October 31st, 2006, 5:16 pm

January 17th, 2016, 9:23 am #812

Status is irrelevant in my opinion. The only thing that matters is "was there a football match played between 2 national teams?" If yes, the match should be included. In these cases, we can think of ourselves as occupying a place "above" all football officials (including FIFA). After all, we are talking about "our" list(s) of matches.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 17th, 2016, 9:50 am #813

This makes sense, but then we still cannot avoid discussions between us who are making "our" list(s) of matches. Where to draw a line to regard a team as A-national team? Even though most of us will agree in general, our (the ones who are making "their" list(s) of matches) opinions are not always the same. Some of us are very flexible in including matches, others very conservative.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 19th, 2016, 4:40 pm #814

Here a post about an Cypriot FA that have included some matches on their list of official matches afterwards, probably recently. I am very curious now which FA will be next. Regarding Netherlands I would advise KNVB to include at least these matches:
04-06-1929: Netherlands 0-2 Scotland08-10-1929: Netherlands 1-0 Belgium14-09-1930: Belgium 4-1 Netherlands14-02-1932: Netherlands 2-3 Belgium16-10-1932: Belgium 2-3 Netherlands26-06-1938: Netherlands 9-2 Dutch East Indies11-06-1939: Netherlands 4-1 Yugoslavia10-12-1939: Netherlands 5-2 Belgium03-07-1952: Netherlands 3-3 Netherlands Antilles01-08-1954: Suriname 3-4 Netherlands03-08-1954: Suriname 0-2 Netherlands12-11-1958: Netherlands 9-3 South Africa22-02-1961: Netherlands 4-0 Romania
What do others advise the FA of their native country to include?
Last edited by Fast Midfielder on January 19th, 2016, 5:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 19th, 2016, 4:54 pm #815

My advice to FAs which already have a long-standing list is: don't make reactionary adjustments without doing a thorough investigation. The list should not consider the viewpoints of modern officials to be superior to the officials at that time, without good reasons.

My advice to FAs which don't have a list: don't just copy/paste from FIFA or Wikipedia or even RSSSF. Make a good job, use whatever historical records you have. Use local newspapers.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 19th, 2016, 5:36 pm #816

My advice to FAs which already have a long-standing list is:
don't make reactionary adjustments without doing a thorough
investigation. The list should not consider the viewpoints of modern
officials to be superior to the officials at that time, without good
reasons.
I can live with this.
Nevertheless, it is ridiculous KNVB i.e. does not regard the 1929 match
against Scotland as official, just because according the KNVB charman at
the time no official matches against professionals could be played. For
the same chairman it was no problem to include the match against
Hungary, which also fielded prfessionals, one year later. The match
against Dutch East Indies in 1938 notably was announced as official as
newspapers at the time showed as wellas one of the players showed about
half a century later when he was interviewed.

My
advice to FAs which don't have a list: don't just copy/paste from FIFA
or Wikipedia or even RSSSF. Make a good job, use whatever historical
records you have. Use local newspapers.
If
FIFA on line list still change like it did untill seven, eight years
ago it would be useless to copy/paste from them. Local newspapers (or
what's local for the specific opponent will alsodo), see i.e. the
Suriname topic.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

January 20th, 2016, 7:54 am #817

Also: national FAs should remember that they "own" the definitive right to define the list for their own association. They don't have to follow a FIFA guidelines on which matches count.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

January 23rd, 2016, 12:49 pm #818

Somewhere into the Gordon Jefferey book "European International Football" (1963) it was written FIFA decided in 1906 it is up to the associations wich matches they want to regard as official. This clearifies why thgere are so many controversies between various national FA's.

Nevertheless, if FAs got aware about this, it might be possible more FAs will correct their lists. We have seen several adaptions already, most of them were good ones by including some matches afterwards which have been played betwee A-national teams and deleting matches which have been played against restrictive teams. Also unofficial internationals can be added. I am thinking about the maches which officially are unofficial (I remember Mark or Neil somewhere wrote various FAs even make a distinction between unoffial internationals.

Some FAs have adapted their list to FIFAs website, like Roanian FA i.e. in 2007 when they deleted all Olympic Games football matches from 1956 despite various matches have been played against unrestrictive NT's, seven of them against Denmark. Hopefully the would reverse this adaption partially.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

February 1st, 2016, 5:17 am #819

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Yesterday Bulgaria 0-0 Romania in Turkey. Romania fielded with the exception of its captain Mihai Pintilii of Al-Hilal Saudi Football Club, only home based players.
Meanwhile this match, played on 07-02-2015, has been deleted.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

February 1st, 2016, 12:06 pm #820

Why did they delete it now? Has the Bulgarian and/or Romanian FA deleted it from the records (or was it ever in the records)?

http://bfunion.bg/en/news/5175

According the the news report, Bulgaria fielded a player named Christian Raspberry...
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

February 1st, 2016, 1:45 pm #821

Christian Raspberry... If one use Google translator sometimes you will get very funny names like this. His real name probably will be Hristo Malina. I translated the line up from English to Bulgarian and the onther way back. The other names have not translated into non Bulgarianlike names. BFU probably did not check the names at Google translator.
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

February 1st, 2016, 2:37 pm #822

The name might be Kristiyan Malinov, as reported by the Bulgarian version of the website.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

February 1st, 2016, 3:44 pm #823

Is a good one Luka, I could not find a certain Hristo Malinov and as most of some famous Bulgarian players I remember were named Hristo (like Bonev and Stoichkov) that name came into my mind first. Besides I remember when the match was on the EU.football.com page the Bulgarian team was also a relatively unexperienced one.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

February 1st, 2016, 6:18 pm #824

It could be funny if all player names were translated literally into the language of the broadcaster, or the host country.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

February 2nd, 2016, 6:40 am #825

Luca wrote:
The name might be Kristiyan Malinov, as reported by the Bulgarian version of the website.
also funny to see all the other versions are more up to date than the Bulgarian version.
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SDb
Joined: January 24th, 2013, 5:10 am

February 2nd, 2016, 10:22 am #826

nfm24 wrote:
Why did they delete it now? Has the Bulgarian and/or Romanian FA deleted it from the records (or was it ever in the records)?
http://bfunion.bg/en/news/5175

According the the news report, Bulgaria fielded a player named Christian Raspberry...
It was never official for Romania. As for Bulgaria; have they yet released any list of matches? The last time I revised my list I couldn't find anything official..
www.soccer-db.info - football internationals
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

February 3rd, 2016, 12:30 pm #827

In recent years I think not, but the description on the report does not mention anything about the status of the match - interpretation could go either way.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

April 19th, 2016, 6:27 pm #828

TheRoonBa wrote:
I wouldn't trust FIFA's site as being definitive. They put unofficial info on their site as well as official
did they also in their Bulletins and handbooks?
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Joined: October 31st, 2006, 5:16 pm

April 20th, 2016, 5:15 pm #829

It's easier to put unofficial information on the site nowadays (with the internet). In the past, I think they relied more on match reports received. Now, information is put on the site, and stays there until it is corroborated (or not) by later evidence in the form of match reports. If the match reports/authorisation do not arrive, the matches are "removed" (which basically means no record of them ever having been played exists on FIFA.com, and there is no way to find these matches ever again on the website). FIFA probably keeps an internal copy of all "matches that were subsequently removed for reason X", but that's not much use to anybody else.

Of course, in all of this, FAs can essentially say what they like, and FIFA will go by what they say (in the past as well as the present). In the past, many matches were listed by FIFA that were not A matches, but at least they seemed to make a good attempt at listing many of the African matches. Today, many African matches are removed from the records because of improper (or non-existent) attempts at obtaining authorisation from CAF. In the past, either the FAs were better at doing this, CAF paid more attention, or FIFA didn't care too much about authorisation.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

April 21st, 2016, 5:25 am #830

TheRoonBa wrote:
In the past, many matches were listed by FIFA that were not A matches, but at least they seemed to make a good attempt at listing many of the African matches.
They used to list matches for which they received a report on the form, usually from the referee.   But there were a lot of other matches for which the forms were not used or were not received.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 2nd, 2016, 9:43 am #831

Well, to quote Toon Hermans again, why do it the easy way if you can do it the difficult way?
About some difficult matters: what if a friendly match is arranged between an A-national team and a restrictive national team? i.e. Poland vs Brazil Olympic, but the Brazilians field more than 3 overaged players, so the Brazilian team is de facto no Olympic XI. I would say relabel Brazil Olympic to Brazil A or Brazil B. How do other forumers think about?
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 2nd, 2016, 1:50 pm #832

I would call it Brazil Olympic XI. Although if the match is a friendly then the "Olympic" label is anyway a misnomer. One could use the notation "Brazil U23+3" (for Olympic matches) then it would become "Brazil U23+4" or whatever... but this is untidy.

Maybe it's like the Denmark Ligalandshold which included players from other Nordic leagues, not only the Danish league.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 4th, 2016, 4:43 pm #833

If one won't label these teams as "A" I think "B" wll be a good solution. However, according to my personal opinion a team labelled "B" but obviously is a mix of "A" and "B" players I rather name it "A" as "B".

Do I deserve the "why do it the easy way if you can do it the difficult way award"? Or the "why do it the difficult way if you can do it the easy way award".
Last edited by Fast Midfielder on December 29th, 2016, 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 4th, 2016, 5:42 pm #834

You can have the "fiddling while Rome burns" award ;-)
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 5th, 2016, 8:33 am #835

Thanks, I am very touched BTW, which award you will give the one(s) who made this discussion possible?
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 5th, 2016, 1:53 pm #836

They could get some awards, but really it will be peanuts compared to the prestigious Bus Driver of the Year award.
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

May 6th, 2016, 4:33 am #837

Fast Midfielder, do you know if a similar situation really happened? I mean: the Brazilian Olympic team fielding more than 3 over-ages? Or was it just an example?
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 6th, 2016, 5:25 am #838

It's just a hypothetical example Luca. I also could use Italy Olympic or Italy U17 for an example. Or any country's amateur NT fielding at least one professional player.
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

May 7th, 2016, 4:28 am #839

Well, in that case it depends. I mean: if an olympic team employs more than 3 over-aged players in a match without restrictions concerning the eligibility, then, in my opinion, such match can be regarded as full international.On the other hand, if an olympic team fields more than 3 over-ages in a game valid for the Olympic Games, that is to say with restrictions, then such match cannot be regarded as full international, and the team fielding more than 3 over-ages should be punished with a loss.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 9th, 2016, 7:22 am #840

Luca, I have a very nice case for you (and all other forum members of course): Prague, 27-10-1928 Czechoslovakia amateurs 1-3 Yugoslavia. Czech line up: Machat; Burgr, Antonín Novák; König, Steffel, Mahrer; Otokar Mráz, Nudra, Jaroslav Moták, Skála, Sokolář.The players in bold played for professional clubs, which will not necessarily say they were professionals, but we can assume Jaroslav Burgr was at the time (sinde 1926). According Tempo Magazine 65 Godine Reprezentacije Jugoslavije, this match is unofficial for Yugoslavia as the fielded one Czechoslovakian, as the Yugoslavs had no 11 players available for this match!
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

May 11th, 2016, 1:53 pm #841

Interesting. The year before, the
opposite happened.
Over Austra 1-1 Czechoslovakia, from 16 June 1927, unofficial for both, Czechoslovakia fielded an Austrian,
Josef Horejs, who, at that time, was a Sparta Prague player.There also have been situations in
which a team could not field 11 players and had therefore to employ
the coach, for example Morocco 5-0 Ethiopia from 1992, as several
members of the Ethiopian team had defected before the game.In 1879 England began a match against Wales with only 10 players, because one of them arrived in late...
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 11th, 2016, 3:59 pm #842

I quite liked the case of Comoros in the 2008 COSAFA Under-20 championship.

They turned up to the tournament with only 14 players. Five of these were ruled ineligible (overage), but the decision to disqualify the team altogether was not taken until after a farcical match against Madagascar. With 5 ineligible and one other player ill, they took the field with only 8 men. During the match 2 players left the field due to injury, leaving only 6, forcing the referee to abandon the match. Surprisingly the score was 1-1 at the time!
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 11th, 2016, 5:00 pm #843

Luca wrote:
Interesting. The year before, the
opposite happened.
Over Austra 1-1 Czechoslovakia, from 16 June 1927, unofficial for both, Czechoslovakia fielded an Austrian,
Josef Horejs, who, at that time, was a Sparta Prague player.There also have been situations in
which a team could not field 11 players and had therefore to employ
the coach, for example Morocco 5-0 Ethiopia from 1992, as several
members of the Ethiopian team had defected before the game.In 1879 England began a match against Wales with only 10 players, because one of them arrived in late...
Horejs may have been naturalized at the time. The link about the 1879 England vs Wales match show something else which is interesting. Matches also can be official when they have different timings as the usual 2x45. This may be interesting for some FA's whose representative (team)s played such matches.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 11th, 2016, 5:15 pm #844

Didn't the same thing (late player) happen in 1875?
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

May 13th, 2016, 2:47 pm #845

In 1875 England faced Scotland with 10 players. The 11th joined his mates in late.
In a 1920 Argentina-Brazil match, the duration was 60 minutes, and there were only seven players on each team.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 13th, 2016, 3:52 pm #846

It would be more interesting to know about a match which had more than 11 players... did one team ever field 12 players as a cheat? We know about cases where a player was sent off but somehow that team continued with 11 men (e.g. the Graham Poll 3 yellows case) but it's not quite the same.

Also I was reminded of the match a couple of years ago, Macedonia vs Scotland. The 2nd half kickoff started with only 10 Macedonians - no goalkeeper. Somehow nobody noticed that he was the last guy out of the tunnel and had not yet entered the pitch when the referee blew for the kickoff... as is traditional Scotland failed to take advantage of the situation... just as in 1996 vs Estonia.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 14th, 2016, 7:29 am #847

nfm24 wrote:
did one team ever field 12 players as a cheat?
More or less. At the 1934 World Cup semi finals Italy 1-0 Austria referee Ivan Eklind neutralised an Austrian chance on purpose by heading the ball in front of Karl Zischek, who was in totally free position to score.
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

May 22nd, 2016, 4:56 am #848

Fast Midfielder wrote:
nfm24 wrote:
did one team ever field 12 players as a cheat?
More or less. At the 1934 World Cup semi finals Italy 1-0 Austria referee Ivan Eklind neutralised an Austrian chance on purpose by heading the ball in front of Karl Zischek, who was in totally free position to score.
Ahahah.... I was going to say South Korea at the 2002 World Cup, but you probably found out a more suitable example.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 22nd, 2016, 10:05 am #849

In both cases the referee was very partial. I know such referees are called the 12th man, but in 1934 Eklind took an active role, that's the difference. Nevertehess, the way referees whistled in favour of Korea in 2002 is rejectable as well.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

June 29th, 2016, 6:49 am #850

I say clear : Moreno was instructed to drive South Korea to victory (under Blatter's supervision). 
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