Water Polo Elo Rankings (1900-2017)

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Water Polo Elo Rankings (1900-2017)

abramjones
Joined: 04 Aug 2012, 20:06

30 Nov 2017, 12:44 #1

Just finished them. These will let us know approximately when Montenegro is outperforming Serbia. Cuba is #7 all time right now, but are quickly falling from Water Polo grace. Does anyone know what the deal with CCCAN Water polo is regarding its amateur status? I know that some organizations with the word amateur in them have started allowing professionals, if this is the case I will add those matches as well.

ALL TIME: http://internationalsports.nfshost.com/ ... ll_time/56
2017: http://internationalsports.nfshost.com/ ... ts/56/2017
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TheRoonBa
Joined: 31 Oct 2006, 22:16

01 Dec 2017, 01:05 #2

I count CCCAN in my water polo results.  The 2 qualifiers for the CCCAN are the CISC (Caribbean Island Swimming Championships), which sometimes has water polo tournaments for national teams (and in some years national youth teams) and CAMEX (Central America and Mexico).

PS - What are you using to gather scores, and where are you finding them?  Are you doing it manually?
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nfm24
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 16:28

02 Dec 2017, 09:32 #3

TheRoonBa wrote:PS - What are you using to gather scores
Sonar, presumably.
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TheRoonBa
Joined: 31 Oct 2006, 22:16

02 Dec 2017, 12:43 #4

nfm24 wrote:
TheRoonBa wrote:PS - What are you using to gather scores
Sonar, presumably.
Many years ago, with a friend, we had a 'game' where we would pick a random word and supplant the first name of uninspiring football people.  The only one I remember is Craig Brown becoming Sonar Brown.  Those were the days...
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nfm24
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 16:28

02 Dec 2017, 14:27 #5

Craig Brown may have seemed uninspiring at the time, but he managed to take Scotland into the World Cup, without the need for a playoff, eliminating the team which came 3rd in the previous tournament.  And he did it despite having Nicky Walker in his squad.
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abramjones
Joined: 04 Aug 2012, 20:06

03 Dec 2017, 14:08 #6

TheRoonBa wrote: I count CCCAN in my water polo results.  The 2 qualifiers for the CCCAN are the CISC (Caribbean Island Swimming Championships), which sometimes has water polo tournaments for national teams (and in some years national youth teams) and CAMEX (Central America and Mexico).

PS - What are you using to gather scores, and where are you finding them?  Are you doing it manually?
Various sources, wherever I can find it. For 2010 and after I usually use this website. todor66.com is also another big one. So CCCAN allows professionals in water polo?
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TheRoonBa
Joined: 31 Oct 2006, 22:16

03 Dec 2017, 16:55 #7

abramjones wrote:
TheRoonBa wrote: I count CCCAN in my water polo results.  The 2 qualifiers for the CCCAN are the CISC (Caribbean Island Swimming Championships), which sometimes has water polo tournaments for national teams (and in some years national youth teams) and CAMEX (Central America and Mexico).

PS - What are you using to gather scores, and where are you finding them?  Are you doing it manually?
Various sources, wherever I can find it. For 2010 and after I usually use this website. todor66.com is also another big one. So CCCAN allows professionals in water polo?
Yes todor66 is a good source - I have also sent some missing results to him for that website.  For tournaments like CCCAN, the best players (in Europe) will not be selected, but this is true for many sports that have continental championships.  They pick the best players available, I believe.  If you look at basketball, for example, Argentina and Brazil do not usually send their best players to the South American Championship or Pan American Games...
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abramjones
Joined: 04 Aug 2012, 20:06

03 Dec 2017, 20:18 #8

TheRoonBa wrote:
abramjones wrote:
TheRoonBa wrote: I count CCCAN in my water polo results.  The 2 qualifiers for the CCCAN are the CISC (Caribbean Island Swimming Championships), which sometimes has water polo tournaments for national teams (and in some years national youth teams) and CAMEX (Central America and Mexico).

PS - What are you using to gather scores, and where are you finding them?  Are you doing it manually?
Various sources, wherever I can find it. For 2010 and after I usually use this website. todor66.com is also another big one. So CCCAN allows professionals in water polo?
Yes todor66 is a good source - I have also sent some missing results to him for that website.  For tournaments like CCCAN, the best players (in Europe) will not be selected, but this is true for many sports that have continental championships.  They pick the best players available, I believe.  If you look at basketball, for example, Argentina and Brazil do not usually send their best players to the South American Championship or Pan American Games...
Yeah, this is a big problem. If a game features development players I usually leave them out except in cases where there is nothing else. In the case of the United States basketball... there's a big difference between sending NBA players and G-League players. I have left out many Brazil and Argentina games in basketball, but I'm sure I missed some as there isn't much information on when they do or don't send decent teams.
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TheRoonBa
Joined: 31 Oct 2006, 22:16

03 Dec 2017, 22:00 #9

I usually leave all teams as national teams in continental championships, unless the A team is playing somewhere else.  For PanAm Games and similar multi-sports tournaments, I usually make a case-by-case judgement if I can check the rosters.

For example, in the Pan American Cup of Volleyball, USA never sends their A team.  I always count it as USA 'B'.

In the Mediterranean Games also, there are regularly B teams in team sports.

In basketball, I count USA as whatever team they can put out.  The USA team for World Cup Qualifiers, for example, is G-League players - but they are qualifying for the major international championship in basketball (apart from the Olympics).  It has to count as the A team...

The same for ice hockey - the best players from Canada and the US rarely play in the World Championships, but usually play in the Olympics.  Nevertheless, I count all as A matches.  Some European teams are also missing their NHL stars for the World Championships...
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abramjones
Joined: 04 Aug 2012, 20:06

04 Dec 2017, 07:16 #10

TheRoonBa wrote: I usually leave all teams as national teams in continental championships, unless the A team is playing somewhere else.  For PanAm Games and similar multi-sports tournaments, I usually make a case-by-case judgement if I can check the rosters.

For example, in the Pan American Cup of Volleyball, USA never sends their A team.  I always count it as USA 'B'.

In the Mediterranean Games also, there are regularly B teams in team sports.

In basketball, I count USA as whatever team they can put out.  The USA team for World Cup Qualifiers, for example, is G-League players - but they are qualifying for the major international championship in basketball (apart from the Olympics).  It has to count as the A team...

The same for ice hockey - the best players from Canada and the US rarely play in the World Championships, but usually play in the Olympics.  Nevertheless, I count all as A matches.  Some European teams are also missing their NHL stars for the World Championships...
I understand, it is a very tough situation... and a testament to the shabbiness of international sports as they are unfortunately secondary to professional club sports (which is a crying shame). My reasoning for not including B squads (except in certain situations, I also make judgement calls which I hate doing), is that it is not a true representation of the skill of the country. Your case is a little different from mine... if you use USA B team results for basketball your rankings will relatively turn out the same... but in my case USA will be severely underrated because I am conducting wealth and population adjusted rankings.

Since all teams are without their NHL players in the World Championships I still use it... this situation seems different than the basketball situation, though I may be mistaken. The new format for basketball qualifying may cause me to rethink all of this.
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mattsanger92
Joined: 04 Jul 2011, 10:46

04 Dec 2017, 10:52 #11

abramjones wrote:
TheRoonBa wrote:The same for ice hockey - the best players from Canada and the US rarely play in the World Championships, but usually play in the Olympics.  Nevertheless, I count all as A matches.  Some European teams are also missing their NHL stars for the World Championships...
Since all teams are without their NHL players in the World Championships I still use it
Just a small asterix on that, World Championship teams do use NHL players, but it tends to be from a pool whose teams have already been eliminated from Stanley Cup contention at the World Championship starting.
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abramjones
Joined: 04 Aug 2012, 20:06

04 Dec 2017, 22:28 #12

mattsanger92 wrote:
abramjones wrote:
TheRoonBa wrote:The same for ice hockey - the best players from Canada and the US rarely play in the World Championships, but usually play in the Olympics.  Nevertheless, I count all as A matches.  Some European teams are also missing their NHL stars for the World Championships...
Since all teams are without their NHL players in the World Championships I still use it
Just a small asterix on that, World Championship teams do use NHL players, but it tends to be from a pool whose teams have already been eliminated from Stanley Cup contention at the World Championship starting.
Yeah, it seems to be a common theme in international sports, during some tournaments national teams have to play second for other events. The funniest example I've seen is in the 2011 American Football World Championship the Austrian main quarterback was busy taking a test for school or work, I can't remember the details, but he finished and showed up mid game to play for Austria. I can't remember who they were playing at the time.

But to getting back to water polo. I think that water polo has offered the best scheduling of any sport I've seen so far for the purpose of ranking... there are continuous international competitions at top level, and even a regularly played development cup... which I think every sport should have. Not only is it cool to see teams you don't hear about that often, but it helps a lot with rankings. Before the development cup some qualification tournaments filled that purpose, but they were not regular. The reason all this is nice is it allows me to add more games from lesser tournaments without worrying about throwing ratings temporarily out of place as much. Considering all this, water polo rankings are probably some of the most accurate of all my rankings so far... of course at the bottom things are still going to get messy... but maybe eventually I can add a goal difference factor to fix that.
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mattsanger92
Joined: 04 Jul 2011, 10:46

04 Dec 2017, 23:12 #13

mattsanger92 wrote:Just a small asterix on that, World Championship teams do use NHL players, but it tends to be from a pool whose teams have already been eliminated from Stanley Cup contention at the World Championship starting.
Looking back at this I'm going to say it was a subconsciously intentional choice of words...

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