Unofficial Greek matches

Cyprus, Gibraltar, Greece, Israel, Italy, Malta, Northern Cyprus, Portugal, San Marino, Spain, Turkey, Vatican City
Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

May 15th, 2012, 1:20 pm #51

I guess nothing more is uncovered on the Subject.
Just to check up some minor details:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
Turkey's 1950-53 Mediterranenan Cup campaign:
28-10-1950Turkey 3-0 Egypt
08-12-1950 Egypt - Turkey 3-1
It's an obvious typo, because the correct scores are:
28.10.1950 Turkey-Egypt 3-1
08.12.1950 Egypt-Turkey 3-0.
In the next days I'll start another Topic, about 1953/58 Med/Cup, because
there are some discrepancies, by comparison with RSSSF, Turkish Sites and newspaper.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 19th, 2012, 7:01 am #52

Luca wrote:
Giampaolo wrote:
My suspicion is the same.
1. In "La Stampa" article on 26 Oct 52 (did you read it?) is clearly written the rules of the Tnmt (1950/53) were: "under 23 aged players, with 3 fuori quota max".
The most reliable source could be "Corriere dello Sport", but unfortunately I can't have access to it. Have you some suggestion, to this purpose?
Corriere dello Sport from 24-10-1952, page 4:
http://dlib.coninet.it/bookreader.php?& ... 4/mode/2up
reports a curious sentence: "Per regolamento, se non erriamo, soltanto tre elementi possono accusare un'età maggiore ai 24 anni" that is to say: "According to the rules, if we are not wrong, only three players can be older than 24 years"...
When Italy faced Greece for the Mediterranean Cup on 26-04-1953, Corriere dello Sport from 27-04-1953:
http://www.emeroteca.coni.it/bookreader ... 2/mode/2up
kept calling it "Nazionale Giovanile", but if we take a look at the Italian line-up, we can verify that 6 players were older than 24 years: Primo Sentimenti, Guglielmo Oppezzo, Omero Tognon, Giancarlo Vitali, Silvio Formentin and Amedeo Amadei, while Greece fielded more or less the same team of the Olympic Games 1952 (they would have fielded also Kostas Linoxilakis, but he was injured).
Giampaolo wrote:Third: I found some conflicts about the dates of Egypt vs Turkey Match, as listed in RSSSF (Turkish and Egyptian sites).
Corriere dello Sport from 25-04-1953, page 3:
http://www.emeroteca.coni.it/bookreader ... 2/mode/2up
reports all the dates of the Mediterranean Cup 1950-1953.
There are a lot of misunderstandings about the 1950-53 Mediterrannean Cup tournament's restrictions for i.e. Italian team. U-23?, U-24? Luca has find out that in the Greece - Italy (U-23, U-24, B, whatever) match six Italians were 24+ years old, so age restriction cannot be the case. As Giampaolo write here http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2294 about the 1953-57 tournament we can also ask if there are restrictions for the so called B-teams? I.e. no more than two participations in “A” as mentioned there, but also i.e. a limited number of players who have already played A-international matches are allowed to play for the B-team.
Giampaolo wrote:Mediterranean Cup 1953-1957
Turkey, Egypt and Greece fielded “A” Teams.
Italy, France and Spain were authorized to field only “B” Teams: the rule was
to allow in “B” Team only players with no more than two participations in “A”
Team.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

May 20th, 2012, 6:01 am #53

The age restriction was a case.
But not only for Italy.
In all the newspapers was "generally" written: Italy "Giovani"/"Giovanile"or "Cadetti" (youth/younger), in antithesis to "Moschettieri" (musketeers), the latter referred to "A" Team.
Only in "few" cases, in some articles, could be found (imho, improperly) "B" Team.
"Always" Greece, Egypt and Turkey weren't preceeded by labels: this meant "A" Team.
Re-reading recently some old newspaper I found, surprisingly, that age restriction (U.23 or U.24) applied to all the Teams, i.e. also to Greece, Turkey and Egypt. But, in the same newspapers, Greece, Turkey and Egypt were without label.
In addition I read, in Turkish Site, that TFA is now considering their Team in 1950/53 MC as "U.21", which is imho an evident inconsistence, for that time.
My personal and final opinion (in absence of new elements) is to label Italy as U.23, Greece and Egypt as "A" and Turkey as XI.
About 1953/57 MC, I'm replying in the other Topic.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 20th, 2012, 6:25 am #54

Giampaolo wrote:In addition I read, in Turkish Site, that TFA is now considering their Team in 1950/53 MC as "U.21", which is imho an evident inconsistence, for that time.
My personal and final opinion (in absence of new elements) is to label Italy as U.23, Greece and Egypt as "A" and Turkey as XI.
In this topic http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1161 you can find Turkish line up for the matches against Greece on 29-02-1952 and 16-05-1952. You will miss the name of the famous Lefter, but he did not play any A-international match for Turkey in the 1951-1952 and 1952-1953 seasons.
Turkey labelled the sides that appeared in follwing matches against Greece as U21. Players in bold appaered in matches Turkey played in 1951-1952 season against Sweden, Germany, Switzerland and Spain, which are regarded official A by Turkish FA.
29-02-1952 v Greece Salahettin, Naci, Müjdat, Esref, Ali Ishan, Sulejman, Recep, Sevket, Mehmet Ali, Abdullah, Coskun.
16-05-1952 v Greece Turgay, Naci, Vedii, Esref, Ali Ishan, Nusret, Sulejman, Recep, Sevket, Mehmet Ali, Coskun.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

May 20th, 2012, 6:35 am #55

I know, I agree with you.
In my personal list I label Turkey as "XI", just to "respect" the decision of TFA to give no "officiality" to their Team in the Tnmt.
But, I repeat, this is my "personal" opinion.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 20th, 2012, 6:43 am #56

OK, that's clear so here we cannot have any misunderstandings about. Still one question. Why do you label Italian team as U-23? In the 26-04-1953 match against Greece they fielded six players who were 24+ years.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

May 20th, 2012, 10:22 am #57

Fast Midfielder wrote:Still one question. Why do you label Italian team as U-23? In the 26-04-1953 match against Greece they fielded six players who were 24+ years.
I'm trying to explain in the best way my thoughts.
Up to 1950 year (included), the only additional Team to NT ("A") was "B" Team, which had no restriction (age and/or other) at all. It was a kind of "reserve" Team, generally playing same day (or strictly same period) of the Main Team ("A").
If we forget two exceptions during WW2, the first time this situation changed was in 1951, when Italy participated to "Eastern Mediterranean Cup". That Team was named "Italia Giovani" or "Italia Giovanile". Only because the "reserve" Team had become quite inactive, sometimes there were newpapers calling "B" the "Giovanile" side.
Was it "U.23" or "U.24"? I don't know. And also I don't know if the age was counted from the Tnmt starting date (1950) or not (like it is, now, for U.21 European Championship); and how many "fuori quota" were allowed in each match?
I think above questions will remain with no answer.
Personally, to distinguish this Team from the previous "reserve" one, which restarted playing after the conclusion of the "Eastern MC", I'm calling it "U.23".
(In brackets: d'you think is correct, with reference to the 1953/57 MC, to name Italy, France and Spain "B" Team, when they had another restriction, not based on the age, but on the number of "A" nominations?)
And there is another question: Greece and Egypt (about Turkey we have already discussed) had they, or not, the same age restrictions of Italy? Who knows?
I hope to have clarified my position.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 20th, 2012, 11:41 am #58

Giampaolo wrote:(In brackets: d'you think is correct, with reference to the 1953/57 MC, to name Italy, France and Spain "B" Team, when they had another restriction, not based on the age, but on the number of "A" nominations?)
No, because the coach who is in charge for the B-team has to field the players he wants to (with the exception of the players who are selected for A-national team that will play the same day (or same period)). No matter if they have played 0-2 A-international matches before or 100+. Imho A- and B-national teams should be the only teams without restrictions. But this is my personal opinion.
However, as you have seen in my comments on other topics it is sometimes very hard to make a distinction between A+B-national team. Sometimes B-teams fielded even more players who have played A-international matches before than some A-teams did.
The match Netherlands played on 11-08-2010 against Ukraine is official A-international for Ukrainian FA, Dutch FA and FIFA even though Dutch NT manager selected only one player who was part of the Dutch World Cup squad that reached the World Cup final exactly one month earlier. Actually the Dutch selection for the match against Ukraine consisted of the nr. 21-37 players + goalkeeper Vorm. Let's say something between B- and C-team! This match was the reason I started this topic http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic. ... highlight= (and this one too http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic. ... highlight=)
I know Italian NT have had the same kind of situation with several of the so called August friendlies.
Giampaolo wrote:And there is another question: Greece and Egypt (about Turkey we have already discussed) had they, or not, the same age restrictions of Italy? Who knows? I hope to have clarified my position.
You have make your position very clear and gave a very good explanation why Italian team was labelled as B-team even though it was a youth side. It is a good question but I fear it is hard to find out. I think according to the Wikipedia profiles of Greek players for Greece NT there could not have been an age restriction.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

May 21st, 2012, 6:45 am #59

Fast Midfielder wrote:
I know Italian NT have had the same kind of situation with several of the so called August friendlies.
That's true.
The case that made quite a splash was the first Match after 2006 WC;
the new coach (Donadoni) was compelled (due to the comprehensible unavailability of the regular players) to field a kind of B/C Team, where only the third goalkeeper (Amelia) took place in the squad.
The result, an official NT Match, was a humiliating defeat (Italy-Croatia 0-2, on 16 August 2006).
This was thanks to Italian FA and their commercial policy.
The sport was (still is ???) out of their mind.
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 2:58 pm

May 22nd, 2012, 6:07 am #60

I've just found an article from La Stampa from the day 03-05-1948 about the Mediterranean Cup 1950-1953.
We can read: vedrà impiegata una squadra composta da elementi nati dopo il 1° maggio 1925 (ad eccezione di quattro, per i quali non vi è alcun limite di età).
that is to say: "players born after 1st May 1925 can participate in this tournament. Also, four over-age players can play".
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 22nd, 2012, 6:40 am #61

Luca wrote:I've just found an article from La Stampa from the day 03-05-1948 about the Mediterranean Cup 1950-1953.
We can read: vedrà impiegata una squadra composta da elementi nati dopo il 1° maggio 1925 (ad eccezione di quattro, per i quali non vi è alcun limite di età).
that is to say: "players born after 1st May 1925 can participate in this tournament. Also, four over-age players can play".
So this tournament is a restrictive competition. What a bizarre restrictions as at the end of the competition all players could be up to 28 years old + four older ones. A lot of unrestrictive teams even usually field less than seven players who are 28+ years. German NT i.e.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 22nd, 2012, 7:34 am #62

Indeed, but most teams also impose their own sensible restrictions on the squad in order to build for the future. It is not always about choosing the best 11 players, but about having experience and youth together.
In particular, some South East Asian countries have done this often in the last decade or so, by virtually disbanding the senior national team and using the U23 team in all competitions.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

May 22nd, 2012, 11:41 am #63

The Article from "La Stampa" enlightens our discussion.
It's evident that a squad composed of 25/28 aged players plus 4 over-age players is not a "Youth" Team (certainly not an U.21 Team); it could be
classified, more properly, as a "kind" of B Team.
And "kind" of B Team were also Italy, France and Spain sides in 1953/57 MC (where the restriction was based on the number of presences in "A" Team).
The "open" question is: tha age restriction in 1950/53 MC was valid only for Italy or also for Egypt, Greece and Turkey?
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 22nd, 2012, 12:46 pm #64

nfm24 wrote:Indeed, but most teams also impose their own sensible restrictions on the squad in order to build for the future. It is not always about choosing the best 11 players, but about having experience and youth together.
And most NT’s have done so once in a while. After 2010 Worldchampionships Brazil started to select players who according to them will play at the 2014 Worldchampionships they will host. So present Brazilian team is more like an improved Youth team. Besides all NT’s have played many experimental matches by not fielding the players who is supposed to be the best on his position.
Giampaolo wrote:The Article from "La Stampa" enlightens our discussion.
It's evident that a squad composed of 25/28 aged players plus 4 over-age players is not a "Youth" Team (certainly not an U.21 Team); it could be classified, more properly, as a "kind" of B Team.
Could be, but for some countries such a team is just a full A-national team, like Germany and Brazil at the moment. I would say more between A+B-team.
Giampaolo wrote:, as a "kind" of B Team.
And "kind" of B Team were also Italy, France and Spain sides in 1953/57 MC (where the restriction was based on the number of presences in "A" Team).
It is better to say a “kind” of a B-team is better than “just” a B-team. I have analyzed different B-teams and sof ar I noticed some countries regularly fielded at least five players who appeared in A-national team before. Italian B-team hardly fielded players who appeared in A-inernational matches before.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

May 23rd, 2012, 6:16 am #65

Giampaolo wrote:
I have two suppositions:
1.The players age (23 or 24) was "frozen" at the beginning of the Tnmt. (year 1950)
Let me say my supposition was "close to be right".
The article from "La Stampa", dated 3 May 1948, says that a FIGC rep. had just come from Athens, where it was decided (supposedly few days before) the organization of (and Italy's participation to) a Medterranean Tnmt to be started from 1950.
The players' birthday date had to be "after 1 May 1925": it means (with the exceptons of max 4 "out of age" players) an U.23 Team.
Of course, an U.23 "sui generis", because the birthday's limit date, instead to be "frozen" at the beginning of the Tournament, which is logical (ref. U.21 European Champ), was "frozen" at the date of the Committee's meeting (end of April 194.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

April 26th, 2014, 9:08 am #66

On this site there is also to find Greece played unofficial friendlies against Egypt (1-0 win on 19-02-1950 and 2-1 defeat on 09-11-1954; on both occasions two days after the official match between both sides. The 21-06-1936 match (5-2 win for Greece; also played two days after the official match) is not mentioned.
about the 1954 unofficial match only Egyptian line up and goalscorers are mentioned.
9 Nov 1954 - Greece 1-2 Egypt "Friendly"

Goals
Greece: N/A
Egypt: Ahmed Mekawi / El-Sayed El-Dhizui 62"

Line Ups
Greece: N/A

Egypt
Prascos (Kato)
Yakan Hussein
Nour El-Dali
Reda
Hamza Abdel Moula
Helmi Aboul Maati
Ahmed Mekawi
El-Sayed El-Dhizui
El-Diba
Sherif El-Far
Essam Baheeg
Last edited by Fast Midfielder on April 26th, 2014, 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

April 26th, 2014, 7:00 pm #67

Greece probably played two days after their 8-0 win over Syria (on 25-11-1949) another match against same opposition. In Dutch newspaper De Tijd of 28-11-1949 there is a message Greece won the soccer match against Syria 2-0 (see the bottom lines at the second column from the right). Can anyone confirm Greece played a second match against the Syrians?
Last edited by Fast Midfielder on April 28th, 2014, 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 24th, 2016, 3:27 pm #68

Reported 26 June 1970:
Greece 2-3 Congo
The visiting Congo national soccer team on Monday night thrashed the Greece national team 3-2 in an exciting friendly match at Athens.
The Congolese were leading 3-1 before the change.



Anybody got more on this?
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 24th, 2016, 5:13 pm #69

As 26 June 1970 was on a Friday, the match has been played on 22 June 1970. But which Congo side was playing? Was it Congo-Kinshasa on tour that played on the 27th against Sudan or was it Congo-Brazzaville?
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 24th, 2016, 5:16 pm #70

That is part of the question :-)
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

May 24th, 2016, 5:26 pm #71

As the match was played on a Monday another question may be if another match between both sides has been played just a couple of days before or after the match. I am curious enough to search, but for most countries it's a struggle for me due to long procedures to get where I want.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 26th, 2016, 4:15 pm #72

I can add that a second report mentions that it was Congo-Kinshasa, and that it was at the Karaiskakis Stadium. This (and the earlier one) are just brief agency reports published in African newspapers of third-party countries.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

May 29th, 2016, 9:44 pm #73

18-Jun-1970 Athens selection 4-4 DR Congo (at Leoforos Alexandras)
22-Jun-1970 Pireas selection 2-3 DR Congo (at Karaiskakis)

Then
26(or 27)-Jun-1970 DR Congo 1-1 Panathinaikos (in Kinshasa)
28-Jun-1970 Sudan 2-1 Panathinaikos (in Kinshasa)
DRC 3-0 Sudan completed this triangular.

Answering my own questions makes me wonder why I bother to ask them :-)
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

February 7th, 2018, 12:35 pm #74

Fast Midfielder wrote: Greece probably played two days after their 8-0 win over Syria (on 25-11-1949) another match against same opposition. In Dutch newspaper De Tijd of 28-11-1949 there is a message Greece won the soccer match against Syria 2-0 (see the bottom lines at the second column from the right). Can anyone confirm Greece played a second match against the Syrians?
found about this match in a Greek newspaper:
file:///C:/Users/P/Downloads/108_60100_-1(1).pdf
file:///C:/Users/P/Downloads/108_60099_-1(1).pdf  including line ups in 2nd column.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

February 7th, 2018, 4:58 pm #75

Can't open the links.
May you summarize the article?
Thanks.?
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

February 7th, 2018, 5:03 pm #76

copy a link, paste it into the browser.
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

February 7th, 2018, 5:15 pm #77

But your links point to your own local computer (so they won't work for Giampaolo unless he had already downloaded the same files in the past :-)

I don't know if PDFs from that Greek library website can be pointed to directly, but anyway, the pages were from "Empros" (29 Nov 1949).
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

February 8th, 2018, 5:01 am #78

I found the page on Empros 29/11.
But I can't understand if the match was played on 28 or 27 (the latter according to "De Tijd"), where (city/venue) it was played and if Greek team was a City XI or NT. 
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Joined: April 7th, 2007, 12:28 pm

February 8th, 2018, 8:54 am #79

I haven't bothered to read them, but I imagine that perhaps the editions from previous days might clarify that.
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

February 8th, 2018, 10:25 am #80

My conclusion.
27 Nov. 1949 was sunday. Therefore, most probably the match was played in 27 (Empros edition of monday 28 is not available).
Inside the article: match was played in Panathinaikos Stadion, so in Athens.
Was it Greece NT or City XI? I don't know. 
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Joined: December 26th, 2008, 11:44 am

February 8th, 2018, 12:33 pm #81

match was played 27 November. The 29 November newspaper reports about a match "pro chthes" which means "the day before yesterday"

Line ups (this is the best I can make; the combination nt can also be read as d).
Greece: Mantalozis - Avranitis (Zarkadis), Paragios - Papatheodorou, Ioannou, Poulis - Chatzinikolaou, Emmanoulidis, Nembidis (Dimitsanas), Bebis, Chalivopoulos.
Syria: Omar - Martini, Khafez - Atassi, Safanti (or Safadi), Khazar - Khamazap (Afarian), Sariakhian, Sougkasian, Sousani, Arzoumanian.

The goals may have been scored by Nemidis (30 mins) and Papatheodorou (39 mins)
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Joined: February 16th, 2011, 3:43 am

February 9th, 2018, 4:39 am #82

After a comparison of the two Greek line-ups (25 and 27 Nov), it's evident that the second match was played by a "B/youth" team.
Only Nembidis  played in both matches (partially : 45 minutes in each of them) .
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