Were A-2020's emotional needs taken care of?

Were A-2020's emotional needs taken care of?

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

April 10th, 2004, 4:35 am #1

As I reread Tanya's report on A-2020 again, I wonder if we need to think about the deanimating Alcor members' emotional needs. Tanya's reassurances to A-2020 seemed to lack what A-2020 needed. Let's put ourselves in A-2020's shoes and imagine we're going down. We're in a hospice-- the equipment is there, but the actual cryonics people are in Mayer. We think we're going to die-- and we very well might-- any hour! Given Dave Pizer's idea that Mayer is a pre-Ventureville situation, I think there has to be some hard thinking on what, exactly, is going on here.
Last edited by recreation on April 19th, 2004, 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rick
Rick

April 12th, 2004, 2:51 pm #2

Ideally, I'd like to see the same attention to comfort applied to the cryonics patient as dentists apply to their patients. "Dying" is terrifying to think about but one of the bonuses of cryonics is the ability to take some of that terror out of the process. "Let's cross our fingers and maybe we'll see you again before you know it", a pretty cryonics technician could tell a cryopatient who has entered a non-recoverable phase. The quality of life for the cryopatient who has moved near the Alcor lab to be frozen should be made more important than "training", as occurred in the case of A-2020. No training could be more important than the caring for a cryopatient during the time they're facing their own ultimate journey to the future. If we did this emotional phase of things properly, we'd be able to use it as a selling feature for cryonics. The individual physician who "pronounces" death should be known by name and the relationship between the cryopatient and that person should be tight and professional at the same time. Of course, this is an idealized expression, nevertheless it's worth thinking about and steering toward.
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John Grigg
John Grigg

April 18th, 2004, 8:14 pm #3

As I reread Tanya's report on A-2020 again, I wonder if we need to think about the deanimating Alcor members' emotional needs. Tanya's reassurances to A-2020 seemed to lack what A-2020 needed. Let's put ourselves in A-2020's shoes and imagine we're going down. We're in a hospice-- the equipment is there, but the actual cryonics people are in Mayer. We think we're going to die-- and we very well might-- any hour! Given Dave Pizer's idea that Mayer is a pre-Ventureville situation, I think there has to be some hard thinking on what, exactly, is going on here.
It just dawned on me that my Alcor membership number is A-2021! Could my "number be up yet?" I realize there is no logical reason for me to worry about this, but I just don't want to wind up in Alcor's version of "Ripley's Believe it or Not."

Regarding the logistics of a cryonicist dying in a Phoenix hospice near Alcor when Ventureville is in Mayer (and it could be built elsewhere, though probably fairly close), I don't have all the details but think it will work out one way or the other.

Friends from Ventureville could visit in shifts to comfort the dying individual. But remember that the key focus is on the technical side of things. Obtaining a quality suspension is the overriding concern, though the human aspect must not be ignored.

And it is possible in time that a hospice might be built at Ventureville, and that upon death the cryonicist could be packed in ice and shipped to Phoenix. Or we might even (in time) have an operating room to do the initial cryosuspension work, so that a crucial hour is not wasted in the drive to Scottsdale. We must remember that a seemingly healthy Ventureville inhabitant might suddenly die without prior warning, so I think we need to be prepared for anything.

Of course there are considerations to be considered about how the local people and government will respond to such plans. They could shoot down things if they found it uncomfortable. But I would not underestimate Dave Pizer's ability to schmooze people and leap through legal hurdles.

Much of what I have said is just conjecture at this point. These matters will not be ultimately settled for probably another 5 or ten years. But in time they will be and hopefully in our favor.

John

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Rick
Rick

April 19th, 2004, 1:40 am #4

You're not alone in your silly number superstition. My Alcor number is #1348. I could, if I were superstitious, think that that meant an unlucky event (13) would occur when I was 48. If I were to make a media carnival event out of this, I could claim that I'm worried about it, (since I'm currently turning 47 in May 2004) and that I'd like Alcor to issue me a new number without the connotation I've assigned to it. Maybe I'll actually try to get a new number based on that, and write Weekly World News about it. Just for fun. Unless someone vehemently objects.

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Rick
Rick

April 24th, 2004, 12:12 am #5

As I reread Tanya's report on A-2020 again, I wonder if we need to think about the deanimating Alcor members' emotional needs. Tanya's reassurances to A-2020 seemed to lack what A-2020 needed. Let's put ourselves in A-2020's shoes and imagine we're going down. We're in a hospice-- the equipment is there, but the actual cryonics people are in Mayer. We think we're going to die-- and we very well might-- any hour! Given Dave Pizer's idea that Mayer is a pre-Ventureville situation, I think there has to be some hard thinking on what, exactly, is going on here.
There have been some new idea on the halfway house at the following thread. [+. Tanya has also commented further in terms of this case and I'll put those links here asap. The main question comes from "anonymous" and is "why do I think it would be any more likely that Alcor personnel would be at the halfway house?". I think the answer is that it would be a place where Alcor and techs would hang out because they want to be there. This would provide a stable tech AND emotive support framework for people who come to live near Alcor to deanimate.
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

April 24th, 2004, 1:21 am #6

Rick, up until now, I failed to see the significance of your series of quasi-rants about the cryopreservation of A-2020. However, reading through several of your messages, it seems to me that you may be onto something here. Perhaps that "significance detector" of yours is in tune after all.

Would it be a misrepresentation to state that A-2020 came to Phoenix in order to get the very best possible cryopreservation, and then the cryopreservation team went out of town for training?
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Rick
Rick

April 24th, 2004, 3:12 am #7

You've stated my thought accurately. Thanks for trying to understand.
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Tanya
Tanya

April 26th, 2004, 7:19 pm #8

Rick, up until now, I failed to see the significance of your series of quasi-rants about the cryopreservation of A-2020. However, reading through several of your messages, it seems to me that you may be onto something here. Perhaps that "significance detector" of yours is in tune after all.

Would it be a misrepresentation to state that A-2020 came to Phoenix in order to get the very best possible cryopreservation, and then the cryopreservation team went out of town for training?
You're certainly correct that A-2020 was concerned that many of the transport personnel were in Mayer, but one factor not yet mentioned is that he firmly believed "today is the day". Every day for him felt so clearly to be the last. A-2020 did not have any experience with terminal conditions, as few of his family or friends had ever suffered such a decline where he was a witness. Unfortunately, those early days were not anywhere near the last, and what he was doing was ignoring our assurances that he still had weeks to live and working himself into an unhealthy frenzy because of it. Though predicting when the heart will stop beating in a given patient is hard, there are always signs that that the body is failing, for those who watch for such things. A-2020 was still ambulatory, coherent, and vitally active when he arrived in Phoenix. It was probably because of his relatively short involvement with cryonics and the community, coupled with a justifyable fear of dying, that made everything so dramatic and urgent.

We also felt bad for him and did what we could to alleviate his concerns, but it's sometimes not enough. Perhaps I shouldn't have stated that he disrupted the training class, but in my mind, he certainly did. It's rather unfortunate that we were unable to use that to our advantage, as a training exercise for the class attendees, largely because he was so upset. Things were a little too delicate at the time.
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Rick
Rick

April 27th, 2004, 3:40 pm #9

Dying isn't just about being caught in time by cryonics technicians. I think it's also about feelings and emotions. Bedside manner has always counted for something in medicine and I think it's going to have to count in cryonics too. I realize its hard to get there, but we need to steer toward better accomodation of cryopatients' emotions by actually having Alcor techs stand by all the time especially when the member moves here to deanimate. Thanks for your answer, Tanya.
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