other cryonicists look down on this forum, no doubt

other cryonicists look down on this forum, no doubt

Church of the Better Resurrection
Church of the Better Resurrection

November 25th, 2012, 3:22 pm #1


They see it as gossipy, no doubt. But that is part of what community is all about.

And where elsewhere is any discussion of alcor's costs, the spreadsheets etc? The real nitty gritty questions that need to be asked to hold cryo orgs accountable?

What happened to all the cryonics discussion? On cryonet2, all we have is a bunch of people talking about dietary obsessions and science trivia news.

All the old time cryos decided to go underground, apparently. No doubt there are closed email lists for oldtime cryos. I never got invited. Maybe there were valid reasons for that. I dunno.

It used to be that if anyone said 'cryonics is a scam,' I would deny it and say 'look at the online discussion and tell me these people are not genuine.' I cannot say that anymore. No discussion.

Alcor has apparently gotten pretty fat from donations from wealthy members and their actions imply that they don't care that much about keeping members when they get old and cannot pay the new higher fees.

But what is the alternative?

We need more alternatives and more members.

THis is why I am trying to integrate cryonics into the mainstream prostestant religion of america. No one understands me. But if it works, they will pretend like they do.

These days the growth rate for cryonics seems lower than ever. I suspect that cryonics growth from years ago was based on a population age cohort that grew up reading novels for entertainment. THese days, people don't really read novels for entertainment as much. Women still do, at least to some extent. But men do not generally read novels much for entertainment anymore. There was a span of time where men and many women read novels instead of playing video games or watching TV. Back in those days, decades ago, TV did not have that much choice and the programming was not targeted that much to specific demographics. And there were no video games. So people read books. They read a lot of science fiction. And there was Heinlein and an entire group of science fiction novelists that held out the idea of immortality and a vision of the future. I think that a lot of people who went on to be cryonicists were deeply influenced by that science fiction.

But the new generation was never steeped in that science fiction mindset. So I think that is a big part of why cryonics growth has slowed down.

Anyway, I have things to do, even on this holiday...working on a youtube video for church of the better resurrection. And I have some other reading to do....





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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 2:19 am

November 25th, 2012, 4:19 pm #2

And novels did play a role in that, even if the ones popular with cryonicists tend to portray antidemocratic politics.

Mike Darwin's reminiscences about Fred Chamberlain a few months back struck me because of the conjunction of Fred's early career with (1) the publication of Ettinger's books; (2) the early space program; and (3) the emerging, Ayn Rand- and Robert Heinlein-inspired early libertarian movement. The idea that cryonics could hitchhike on a technologically progressive "space age," along with the trend towards a more libertarian society, sounded more plausible 40 years ago than it does now. (We saw in the last election how far that ridiculous Ron Paul got with his libertarian agenda.)

The cryonicist holdovers from that era who still talk that way about "the future" might as well talk about their crush on Ann-Margaret or something.

The cryonics movement after all these decades needs to grow up, move out of the basement and become self-reliant, instead of looking for hitchhiking opportunities in the form of foolish geek enthusiasms like, oh, "friendly AI."
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Rick55
Rick55

November 25th, 2012, 4:23 pm #3

They see it as gossipy, no doubt. But that is part of what community is all about.

And where elsewhere is any discussion of alcor's costs, the spreadsheets etc? The real nitty gritty questions that need to be asked to hold cryo orgs accountable?

What happened to all the cryonics discussion? On cryonet2, all we have is a bunch of people talking about dietary obsessions and science trivia news.

All the old time cryos decided to go underground, apparently. No doubt there are closed email lists for oldtime cryos. I never got invited. Maybe there were valid reasons for that. I dunno.

It used to be that if anyone said 'cryonics is a scam,' I would deny it and say 'look at the online discussion and tell me these people are not genuine.' I cannot say that anymore. No discussion.

Alcor has apparently gotten pretty fat from donations from wealthy members and their actions imply that they don't care that much about keeping members when they get old and cannot pay the new higher fees.

But what is the alternative?

We need more alternatives and more members.

THis is why I am trying to integrate cryonics into the mainstream prostestant religion of america. No one understands me. But if it works, they will pretend like they do.

These days the growth rate for cryonics seems lower than ever. I suspect that cryonics growth from years ago was based on a population age cohort that grew up reading novels for entertainment. THese days, people don't really read novels for entertainment as much. Women still do, at least to some extent. But men do not generally read novels much for entertainment anymore. There was a span of time where men and many women read novels instead of playing video games or watching TV. Back in those days, decades ago, TV did not have that much choice and the programming was not targeted that much to specific demographics. And there were no video games. So people read books. They read a lot of science fiction. And there was Heinlein and an entire group of science fiction novelists that held out the idea of immortality and a vision of the future. I think that a lot of people who went on to be cryonicists were deeply influenced by that science fiction.

But the new generation was never steeped in that science fiction mindset. So I think that is a big part of why cryonics growth has slowed down.

Anyway, I have things to do, even on this holiday...working on a youtube video for church of the better resurrection. And I have some other reading to do....




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Church of the Better Resurrection
Church of the Better Resurrection

November 25th, 2012, 4:41 pm #4

And novels did play a role in that, even if the ones popular with cryonicists tend to portray antidemocratic politics.

Mike Darwin's reminiscences about Fred Chamberlain a few months back struck me because of the conjunction of Fred's early career with (1) the publication of Ettinger's books; (2) the early space program; and (3) the emerging, Ayn Rand- and Robert Heinlein-inspired early libertarian movement. The idea that cryonics could hitchhike on a technologically progressive "space age," along with the trend towards a more libertarian society, sounded more plausible 40 years ago than it does now. (We saw in the last election how far that ridiculous Ron Paul got with his libertarian agenda.)

The cryonicist holdovers from that era who still talk that way about "the future" might as well talk about their crush on Ann-Margaret or something.

The cryonics movement after all these decades needs to grow up, move out of the basement and become self-reliant, instead of looking for hitchhiking opportunities in the form of foolish geek enthusiasms like, oh, "friendly AI."
you continue to suggest a path forward based on cryonicists funding the science to make cryonics viable. I do not think that is currently viable. As I have said before, it will take many decades, if not centuries, for mankind to slowly develop the scientific substrate that will provide the foundation for the science that can show to the world that cryonics could work.

Restated, you overestimate where we currently are in terms of science, just as the extropians did in the 90s. The extropians and other cryos in the 90s thought that a tidal wave of science would usher in cryonics respectability. You differ from them in that you think we cryonicists have to raise the money to fund the research to make cryonics respectable. Again, you overestimate where we are.
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Rick55
Rick55

November 25th, 2012, 4:53 pm #5

You say you're busy... so....



Maybe you missed this bestseller...



...but did you ever consider...



On your notion that Protestants will convert to Physical Resurrection Beliefs, it's nothing but an interesting idea in my view-- that makes interesting and even useful conversation but to base an actual cryonics outreach mission upon it, to me, is not justified on account of the fact that Physical Resurrection of Jesus Belief is theologically debatable and complicated.... note the 15 million google results...

https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl= ... arch&gbv=2

....and you want to pitch it here...?



Wouldn't you be better off pitching something or proseletyzin here?



What do the Jews do in a synagogue anyway? For that matter, what the heck do the freemasons do and talk about in their masonic halls?



Besides, if Jesus resurrected/reanimated, he did it in a "glorified body"... not a "regular body"...



Unless you propose that cryonics GLORIFY our bodies upon reanimation, I don't think you have a case. So you would say Alcor reanimation should look like this...



Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd like to be reanimated as a GLORIFIED body like that too, but that's not what Alcor is selling. Instead, I think cryonics is about reanimation in a better but ordinary non-glorified body so Jesus would have looked like this...



If you're looking to sell cryonics to bible believers, you ought to start with methuselah, of course, no?



... or even the Wandering Jew... who did not even have to be resurrected to live forever... although he wasn't (isn't?) in a "glorified body"



For a good overview of the true theological debate over the physical resurrection, I found this article helpful.

Objections to Jesus' physical resurrection answered
by Matt Slick

http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... n-answered

The author supports physical resurrection however it's quite clear about the raised body being glorified. Alcor might create a checkbox...

Do you wish to be reanimated in
a) a regular body
b) a glorified body

I think there may be something to your idea that Alcor has been feeling fat and happy lately... despite the lawsuits that are ongoing taking up as much as salaries and despite the alcor financial cliff noted by frietas, platt and merkle in various articles in 2011....


Alcor board...


Private email list names which surely exist have never even been advertised as exitising much less acknowledged to exist at all which constitutes secret societies...



...and they may think of this forum as gossip but that's what goes on in a cafeteria... along with eating...







....the name cryonics "cafeteria"... evoking gossip which is a good thing...

https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl= ... arch&gbv=2


Have You Heard? Gossip Turns Out to Serve a Purpose - New York ...
www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/science/16go ... wanted=all - Similar
Aug 16, 2005 ... Gossip has long been dismissed by researchers as little more than background noise, blather with no useful function. But some investigators ...

Gossip serves a useful purpose after all
medicalxpress.com/news/2011-05-gossip-purpose.html - Cached
May 20, 2011 ... (Medical Xpress) -- Researchers in the US have discovered that hearing gossip about a person literally changes the way you see them, and ...

How Gossip Saves Society
us.gizmodo.com/5880437/how-gossip-saves-society - Cached
Jan 30, 2012 ... But our society seems to stigmatize gossip, branding it as common, rude ... t

?t=20120120150238










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Church of the Better Resurrection
Church of the Better Resurrection

November 25th, 2012, 4:54 pm #6

you continue to suggest a path forward based on cryonicists funding the science to make cryonics viable. I do not think that is currently viable. As I have said before, it will take many decades, if not centuries, for mankind to slowly develop the scientific substrate that will provide the foundation for the science that can show to the world that cryonics could work.

Restated, you overestimate where we currently are in terms of science, just as the extropians did in the 90s. The extropians and other cryos in the 90s thought that a tidal wave of science would usher in cryonics respectability. You differ from them in that you think we cryonicists have to raise the money to fund the research to make cryonics respectable. Again, you overestimate where we are.
that is where the membership growth is. And where membership growth is, is power, is the opportunity for alternatives to alcor and CI. And much more. Science will have to wait for the drunkard's walk that is scientific progress.

We need to look within ourselves and see that we cryos are by and large very different, outsiders in many respects, and understand that building a community that is socially integrated with the majoritarian community. Understand our differences, come to terms with the majority and how they differ from ourselves and use this understanding to grow cryonics.

Let science take its own sweet time. It was going to anyway....
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Joined: October 8th, 2001, 10:25 pm

November 25th, 2012, 4:54 pm #7

They see it as gossipy, no doubt. But that is part of what community is all about.

And where elsewhere is any discussion of alcor's costs, the spreadsheets etc? The real nitty gritty questions that need to be asked to hold cryo orgs accountable?

What happened to all the cryonics discussion? On cryonet2, all we have is a bunch of people talking about dietary obsessions and science trivia news.

All the old time cryos decided to go underground, apparently. No doubt there are closed email lists for oldtime cryos. I never got invited. Maybe there were valid reasons for that. I dunno.

It used to be that if anyone said 'cryonics is a scam,' I would deny it and say 'look at the online discussion and tell me these people are not genuine.' I cannot say that anymore. No discussion.

Alcor has apparently gotten pretty fat from donations from wealthy members and their actions imply that they don't care that much about keeping members when they get old and cannot pay the new higher fees.

But what is the alternative?

We need more alternatives and more members.

THis is why I am trying to integrate cryonics into the mainstream prostestant religion of america. No one understands me. But if it works, they will pretend like they do.

These days the growth rate for cryonics seems lower than ever. I suspect that cryonics growth from years ago was based on a population age cohort that grew up reading novels for entertainment. THese days, people don't really read novels for entertainment as much. Women still do, at least to some extent. But men do not generally read novels much for entertainment anymore. There was a span of time where men and many women read novels instead of playing video games or watching TV. Back in those days, decades ago, TV did not have that much choice and the programming was not targeted that much to specific demographics. And there were no video games. So people read books. They read a lot of science fiction. And there was Heinlein and an entire group of science fiction novelists that held out the idea of immortality and a vision of the future. I think that a lot of people who went on to be cryonicists were deeply influenced by that science fiction.

But the new generation was never steeped in that science fiction mindset. So I think that is a big part of why cryonics growth has slowed down.

Anyway, I have things to do, even on this holiday...working on a youtube video for church of the better resurrection. And I have some other reading to do....




For the following reasons:

1. Due to your history, they have no assurance that this forum will be available tomorrow, next month or next year. Why waste any effort contributing at a place whose permanence is perpetually in question? You deride Jonathan as some defective protoge' of yourself, yet Cold Filter will most assuredly be there for people to peruse as long as Network 54 lasts.

2. You've frequently proclaimed fover the years that "Network 54 is a superior format" and how your forums are "personality driven". Look down this page. Out of approximately 300 posts on the entire front page, 228 of them are "rick55". That to me is more like "personality masturbated". Is what you are seeking a place where people can come and read in rapture as Rick Potvin posts crap like:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/54032/me ... x+problems.

?

Let me ask you: Let's pretend that Rick Potvin was someone who had been successful enough in his own life to attract and marry a beautiful and successful woman like Barbara Eden. You google her name one day and find innumerable websites thrown up by punks who hope to capitalize on her name by re-posting fake nude photographs of her in a sleazy attempt to get traffic to their site ...

How would you feel? As her husband, you are proud of the fact that she became successful without capitalizing on her sex appeal by ever posing nude (and in fact, donated much of her time to the USO). Did your parents ever try to clue you in to the concept that it's a good idea to treat other people the way you would like them to treat you?

Stop posting crap and see if providing some assurance of forum permanence won't attract some of the fascinating, intelligent people who are involved with cryonics or and who may have ideas other than: what is bouncing off Rick Potvin's walls, today?

SD

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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 2:19 am

November 25th, 2012, 4:58 pm #8

you continue to suggest a path forward based on cryonicists funding the science to make cryonics viable. I do not think that is currently viable. As I have said before, it will take many decades, if not centuries, for mankind to slowly develop the scientific substrate that will provide the foundation for the science that can show to the world that cryonics could work.

Restated, you overestimate where we currently are in terms of science, just as the extropians did in the 90s. The extropians and other cryos in the 90s thought that a tidal wave of science would usher in cryonics respectability. You differ from them in that you think we cryonicists have to raise the money to fund the research to make cryonics respectable. Again, you overestimate where we are.
Much less the ordinary diligence of mainstream medicine. Just read some of Mike Darwin's suspension reports from the old says to see what he did, compared with the haphazard standard of suspensions now.

That Maxim woman turned into a pain in the ***, but she did make excellent points. Perfusionists perform basically the cryonics washout procedure every day, but competently, without mistakes and without the drama you see in just about every report of suspensions performed by amateurs.
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Joined: October 8th, 2001, 10:25 pm

November 25th, 2012, 4:58 pm #9

You say you're busy... so....



Maybe you missed this bestseller...



...but did you ever consider...



On your notion that Protestants will convert to Physical Resurrection Beliefs, it's nothing but an interesting idea in my view-- that makes interesting and even useful conversation but to base an actual cryonics outreach mission upon it, to me, is not justified on account of the fact that Physical Resurrection of Jesus Belief is theologically debatable and complicated.... note the 15 million google results...

https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl= ... arch&gbv=2

....and you want to pitch it here...?



Wouldn't you be better off pitching something or proseletyzin here?



What do the Jews do in a synagogue anyway? For that matter, what the heck do the freemasons do and talk about in their masonic halls?



Besides, if Jesus resurrected/reanimated, he did it in a "glorified body"... not a "regular body"...



Unless you propose that cryonics GLORIFY our bodies upon reanimation, I don't think you have a case. So you would say Alcor reanimation should look like this...



Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd like to be reanimated as a GLORIFIED body like that too, but that's not what Alcor is selling. Instead, I think cryonics is about reanimation in a better but ordinary non-glorified body so Jesus would have looked like this...



If you're looking to sell cryonics to bible believers, you ought to start with methuselah, of course, no?



... or even the Wandering Jew... who did not even have to be resurrected to live forever... although he wasn't (isn't?) in a "glorified body"



For a good overview of the true theological debate over the physical resurrection, I found this article helpful.

Objections to Jesus' physical resurrection answered
by Matt Slick

http://carm.org/christianity/christian- ... n-answered

The author supports physical resurrection however it's quite clear about the raised body being glorified. Alcor might create a checkbox...

Do you wish to be reanimated in
a) a regular body
b) a glorified body

I think there may be something to your idea that Alcor has been feeling fat and happy lately... despite the lawsuits that are ongoing taking up as much as salaries and despite the alcor financial cliff noted by frietas, platt and merkle in various articles in 2011....


Alcor board...


Private email list names which surely exist have never even been advertised as exitising much less acknowledged to exist at all which constitutes secret societies...



...and they may think of this forum as gossip but that's what goes on in a cafeteria... along with eating...







....the name cryonics "cafeteria"... evoking gossip which is a good thing...

https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl= ... arch&gbv=2


Have You Heard? Gossip Turns Out to Serve a Purpose - New York ...
www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/science/16go ... wanted=all - Similar
Aug 16, 2005 ... Gossip has long been dismissed by researchers as little more than background noise, blather with no useful function. But some investigators ...

Gossip serves a useful purpose after all
medicalxpress.com/news/2011-05-gossip-purpose.html - Cached
May 20, 2011 ... (Medical Xpress) -- Researchers in the US have discovered that hearing gossip about a person literally changes the way you see them, and ...

How Gossip Saves Society
us.gizmodo.com/5880437/how-gossip-saves-society - Cached
Jan 30, 2012 ... But our society seems to stigmatize gossip, branding it as common, rude ... t

?t=20120120150238









This ^^^

is what they have FaceBook and Twitter for, RICK.

SD

.
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Rick55
Rick55

November 25th, 2012, 5:02 pm #10

Explain.

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