Helpless?

Helpless?

TWrelated
TWrelated

March 16th, 2004, 3:33 pm #1

"Because an awful lot of people don't trust their own relatives, and think that they might try and get them thawed and and cremated while they are completely helpless and cannot defend themselves. Sound familiar?"

Who is helpless?

A person pays a great deal of money to Alcor to be preserved when there is no guarantee a reanimation will ever occur.

They don't have to follow any proven scientific standards or guidelines because none exist.

They don't have to account for proper, proven, successful storage.

They don't have to admit to family members that anyone might be there.

They don't have to show any evidence as to how the family member got there.

There is no mechanism in place to finance the reanimation at some future date.

There will never be any accountability for anything, because anyone who knows anything in the far distant future will be long gone. No one will be left to be concerned for the interests of the family member.

I'm sorry, I'm really grappling with understanding this bright, rosy future you're all anticipated.

It's feeling like a brilliant Ponzi scheme.

Help me out here...
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Maniac
Maniac

March 16th, 2004, 3:42 pm #2

EOM
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TWrelated
TWrelated

March 16th, 2004, 3:44 pm #3

What?

I think everything I listed is the truth, as I understand it.

Educate me...
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 16th, 2004, 3:46 pm #4

"Because an awful lot of people don't trust their own relatives, and think that they might try and get them thawed and and cremated while they are completely helpless and cannot defend themselves. Sound familiar?"

Who is helpless?

A person pays a great deal of money to Alcor to be preserved when there is no guarantee a reanimation will ever occur.

They don't have to follow any proven scientific standards or guidelines because none exist.

They don't have to account for proper, proven, successful storage.

They don't have to admit to family members that anyone might be there.

They don't have to show any evidence as to how the family member got there.

There is no mechanism in place to finance the reanimation at some future date.

There will never be any accountability for anything, because anyone who knows anything in the far distant future will be long gone. No one will be left to be concerned for the interests of the family member.

I'm sorry, I'm really grappling with understanding this bright, rosy future you're all anticipated.

It's feeling like a brilliant Ponzi scheme.

Help me out here...
The man in the dewar is helpless. He is not even legally a person.
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Maniac
Maniac

March 16th, 2004, 3:50 pm #5

What?

I think everything I listed is the truth, as I understand it.

Educate me...
I'm sorry, I mistyped before.

Here is the cryonics agreement:
http://alcor.org/Library/pdfs/signup-Cr ... eement.pdf

Other contracts are at:
http://alcor.org/Library/index.html#signup

Alcor does not promise very much. But in practice, they have a long history of fighting for it's members. See http://alcor.org/Library/index.html#history

I am feeling that they are becoming "damned if they do, damned of they don't." For instance, since Alcor doesn't promise anything people say, "Well, Alcor is charging people all this money, but what can they expect for certain from it?" But if Alcor did make promises they would be guilty of consumer fraud.

Indeed there is a website http://www.saveted.net that accuses Alcor of consumer fraud - even though Alcor doesn't (and can't) promise reanimation
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

March 16th, 2004, 3:50 pm #6

"Because an awful lot of people don't trust their own relatives, and think that they might try and get them thawed and and cremated while they are completely helpless and cannot defend themselves. Sound familiar?"

Who is helpless?

A person pays a great deal of money to Alcor to be preserved when there is no guarantee a reanimation will ever occur.

They don't have to follow any proven scientific standards or guidelines because none exist.

They don't have to account for proper, proven, successful storage.

They don't have to admit to family members that anyone might be there.

They don't have to show any evidence as to how the family member got there.

There is no mechanism in place to finance the reanimation at some future date.

There will never be any accountability for anything, because anyone who knows anything in the far distant future will be long gone. No one will be left to be concerned for the interests of the family member.

I'm sorry, I'm really grappling with understanding this bright, rosy future you're all anticipated.

It's feeling like a brilliant Ponzi scheme.

Help me out here...
Maybe in the movies or on TV, you have heard actors playing doctors say. "This is en experimental procedure. We don't know if this will save your life/cure your disease, etc"?

Well, that is what cryonics is -- an experiment. We do not know if it will work. That is true of ALL experiments--the outcome is unknown. If we knew the outcome, it would not be an experiment.

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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 16th, 2004, 4:02 pm #7

"Because an awful lot of people don't trust their own relatives, and think that they might try and get them thawed and and cremated while they are completely helpless and cannot defend themselves. Sound familiar?"

Who is helpless?

A person pays a great deal of money to Alcor to be preserved when there is no guarantee a reanimation will ever occur.

They don't have to follow any proven scientific standards or guidelines because none exist.

They don't have to account for proper, proven, successful storage.

They don't have to admit to family members that anyone might be there.

They don't have to show any evidence as to how the family member got there.

There is no mechanism in place to finance the reanimation at some future date.

There will never be any accountability for anything, because anyone who knows anything in the far distant future will be long gone. No one will be left to be concerned for the interests of the family member.

I'm sorry, I'm really grappling with understanding this bright, rosy future you're all anticipated.

It's feeling like a brilliant Ponzi scheme.

Help me out here...
>A person pays a great deal of money to Alcor to be >preserved when there is no guarantee a reanimation >will ever occur.

What, they should lie about it?

>They don't have to follow any proven scientific >standards or guidelines because none exist.

None that you know of. The best judgment is used in every case, and case studies are published (though, admittedly, not as timely as we would like...getting constantly harassed cuts down on productivity)

>They don't have to account for proper, proven, >successful storage.

Sure they do. Several independent trusts make regular visits to ensure good storage, as well as many family members who make regular trips. So long as the patient or his assignees agreed to it in advance.

>They don't have to admit to family members that anyone >might be there.

They do it all the time. Just not in cases where they are specifically required not to by contract. A relatively small fraction.

>They don't have to show any evidence as to how the >family member got there.

I'm not sure what you mean. Airline receipts?

>There is no mechanism in place to finance the >reanimation at some future date.

The Patient Care Trust is independent, and only a fraction of its income is used for mantainance. The rest is allowed to grow. At the very least, the initial capital should still be available for such expenses.

>There will never be any accountability for anything, >because anyone who knows anything in the far distant >future will be long gone. No one will be left to be >concerned for the interests of the family member.

Exactly why institutions like Alcor were developed. In the 60's people tried to do cryonics themselves, and after a couple years lost interest and thawed out the relatives. Alcor does not lose interest, because it is run by people who expect to be in the dewar themsleves someday. A bit like requiring a building engineer to live in the building he designs. It focuses the mind wonderfully.
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TWrelated
TWrelated

March 16th, 2004, 4:03 pm #8

I'm sorry, I mistyped before.

Here is the cryonics agreement:
http://alcor.org/Library/pdfs/signup-Cr ... eement.pdf

Other contracts are at:
http://alcor.org/Library/index.html#signup

Alcor does not promise very much. But in practice, they have a long history of fighting for it's members. See http://alcor.org/Library/index.html#history

I am feeling that they are becoming "damned if they do, damned of they don't." For instance, since Alcor doesn't promise anything people say, "Well, Alcor is charging people all this money, but what can they expect for certain from it?" But if Alcor did make promises they would be guilty of consumer fraud.

Indeed there is a website http://www.saveted.net that accuses Alcor of consumer fraud - even though Alcor doesn't (and can't) promise reanimation
I don't have time to study them in detail right now, but at a glance the only thing Alcor seems to be warranting is taking the money.
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Maniac
Maniac

March 16th, 2004, 4:24 pm #9

"Because an awful lot of people don't trust their own relatives, and think that they might try and get them thawed and and cremated while they are completely helpless and cannot defend themselves. Sound familiar?"

Who is helpless?

A person pays a great deal of money to Alcor to be preserved when there is no guarantee a reanimation will ever occur.

They don't have to follow any proven scientific standards or guidelines because none exist.

They don't have to account for proper, proven, successful storage.

They don't have to admit to family members that anyone might be there.

They don't have to show any evidence as to how the family member got there.

There is no mechanism in place to finance the reanimation at some future date.

There will never be any accountability for anything, because anyone who knows anything in the far distant future will be long gone. No one will be left to be concerned for the interests of the family member.

I'm sorry, I'm really grappling with understanding this bright, rosy future you're all anticipated.

It's feeling like a brilliant Ponzi scheme.

Help me out here...
As anon pointed above, almost all of these objections have legitimate answers (which anon briefly answered).

Cryonics is a complicated idea. It takes some research and study to understand it fully.

The problem is that too many people make ASSUMPTIONS and GUESSES about the answers to these questions, instead of doing some homework. Almost always, these assumptions are wrong.

See http://www.alcor.org
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

March 16th, 2004, 8:47 pm #10

I don't have time to study them in detail right now, but at a glance the only thing Alcor seems to be warranting is taking the money.
You want proof of Alcor's good intentions, and you want it provided to you in a short and concise package. Well, that is impossible. If you really want to assure yourself that Alcor has good intentions, you need to devote some time to do some research. And lucky for you, cryonicists maintain an archive of all message posted to their mailing list. THis archive goes back about 15 years.

Here it is:
http://www.cryonet.org/0001.html

Just dive right in. Start at the beginning. THere are about 15 thousand messages there. Read through a good sampling of those 15K messages, and THEN come back and tell us about the motives of cryonicists.

We will be here when you get back.....
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