Alcor's update on this vote should include...

Alcor's update on this vote should include...

Rick
Rick

March 12th, 2004, 1:57 pm #1

...should include which amendment was passed. Maybe it's the very one that changes the nature of the bill so that it's acceptable to Alcor. I don't recall the details.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 12th, 2004, 2:44 pm #2

I'll speak for myself since there doesn't seem to be commentary by anyone "in the know" this morning on Cryonet-- and speaking for myself-- for whatever little it's worth to anyone-- it seesm to me that the bill can still be stopped on Monday. I haven't seen anyone post results as to the numbers that voted yes or no to the bill-- so maybe its a case of Barry Aarons, the Alcor lobbyist, approaching just a few key people needed to switch their vote for Monday. Maybe that's the purpose of the "voice vote" or whatever they call the vote that occurred on Thursday. Recall that Dave Pizer who used to be a board director and officer at Alcor said that there are several points at which the bill can be stopped. [+].
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

March 12th, 2004, 3:42 pm #3

THe voice vote was pretty much one-sided, and there were many people who were working with Stump. They are trying to kill cryonics in AZ. THey will succeed. That is OK. California is still there for us.
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Rick
Rick

March 12th, 2004, 4:08 pm #4

If you read Pizer's post, linked to this thread above-- via another link (easy to find)-- it doesn't look that straightforward. Will you read his post then let me know what you think. Thanks.
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

March 12th, 2004, 5:02 pm #5

After the house, then the senate, then to the gov to be signed into law, after which it can be challenged in court.

Generally, the main objection to cryonics is based on the moral outrage felt by religious people. And GOP politicans are notably more religious in general. I note that our defender in the debate yesterday, Linda Lopez 10 D llopez@azleg.state.az.us 417-3010 602-542-4089, is the minorty whip of the House, and is of course a democrat. BTW, we all need to send Lopez an email thanking her for fighting for us. She really stood up for us!

Generally, Senate bodies are more conservative than House bodies, and it appears to be that this bill will pass the House, judging from the one-sidedness of the voice vote. And if it will pass the house, it will likely pass the senate.
In the AZ House:
36 GOP 24 Democrats

However, the Senate is even at 15 apiece:
Senate 15 GOP Democrats 15

So, I would think that we have a better chance of stopping or modifying the bill in the Senate. However, senators are generally more conservative than Reps.

Now, as to Napolitano, she is a Democrat, and has taken a strong stance on abortion rights, and as Atty general, she took a strong stance against religious displays by the state (e.g., Christmas decorations on govt property). So she may be the one to look to for vetoing this bill, but I would think that modification in the senate is our best bet.
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

March 12th, 2004, 5:16 pm #6

Venturism is a religion, after all, and it is inextricably bound to cryonics. This bill will effectively kill cryonics as it is currently practiced in AZ. Venturism is a formally recognized religion, and its leaders should use whatever advantage we can get from that in the AZ senate and with the Gov.
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Rick
Rick

March 12th, 2004, 5:25 pm #7

Good analysis on the situation-- thanks! You're right about thanking Lopez-- I'll email her too with a thanks. And I agree on the religion aspect. If the bill destroys cryonics in AZ, that should be construed as an infringement on religious freedom. Religion is nothing but politics by another means, in my book. And it's a language, as well. IF the conservatives and other anti-cryonics people in Arizona base their thinking on what they think of as their religious beliefs, then we, too, have religious beliefs that are under attack here. This may very well put Venturism in a national spotlight much sooner than we anticipated. It may require Dave and Mike to shore up the loose ends and to make bold pronouncements that will get them quoted all over the world. If I were Mark Plus, Dave Pizer and Mike Perry, I would be huddled in conference right now, planning a religious defense of cryonics.
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

March 12th, 2004, 5:26 pm #8

Venturism is a religion, after all, and it is inextricably bound to cryonics. This bill will effectively kill cryonics as it is currently practiced in AZ. Venturism is a formally recognized religion, and its leaders should use whatever advantage we can get from that in the AZ senate and with the Gov.
from venturist.org:

The organization was formally incorporated in 1986. Its original name was the Church of Venturism, changed in 1990 to the Society for Venturism. The name "Venturism" comes from "venture," an adventure with an element of risk. The greatest such venture is life itself, and we Venturists take human life and its potential very seriously.

Also from alcor.org:
Dr. Perry is a Director of the Society for Venturism and has been a member of this organization since 1986. He is an ordained minister in this organization and performs wedding ceremonies and memorial
services. Dr. Perry has been a member of Alcor since 1984.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But what about http://www.transhumanistchurch.org ? I wonder if Tripper or Croft are ordained?
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Texas Cryo
Texas Cryo

March 12th, 2004, 5:34 pm #9

Good analysis on the situation-- thanks! You're right about thanking Lopez-- I'll email her too with a thanks. And I agree on the religion aspect. If the bill destroys cryonics in AZ, that should be construed as an infringement on religious freedom. Religion is nothing but politics by another means, in my book. And it's a language, as well. IF the conservatives and other anti-cryonics people in Arizona base their thinking on what they think of as their religious beliefs, then we, too, have religious beliefs that are under attack here. This may very well put Venturism in a national spotlight much sooner than we anticipated. It may require Dave and Mike to shore up the loose ends and to make bold pronouncements that will get them quoted all over the world. If I were Mark Plus, Dave Pizer and Mike Perry, I would be huddled in conference right now, planning a religious defense of cryonics.
Better to just get the Venturism and transhumanist churches some local AZ publicity. Get some interviews with some of the leaders of those 2 churches. If some of the AZ politicians read it, they may be less tempted to vote for the bill.

However that could backfire when trying to make the case for cryonics as science. Can it be both a science and a religion? I think it really is both. Alcor practices it as a scientific experiment. But some cryonicists, most of whom are not ALcor employees, do see cryonics as their religion.

Tricky approach to it. You have to both separate cryonics from Venturism/transhumanist church, and at the same time, bind them together.
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Rick
Rick

March 12th, 2004, 5:37 pm #10

from venturist.org:

The organization was formally incorporated in 1986. Its original name was the Church of Venturism, changed in 1990 to the Society for Venturism. The name "Venturism" comes from "venture," an adventure with an element of risk. The greatest such venture is life itself, and we Venturists take human life and its potential very seriously.

Also from alcor.org:
Dr. Perry is a Director of the Society for Venturism and has been a member of this organization since 1986. He is an ordained minister in this organization and performs wedding ceremonies and memorial
services. Dr. Perry has been a member of Alcor since 1984.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But what about http://www.transhumanistchurch.org ? I wonder if Tripper or Croft are ordained?
I think Mike Perry and Dave Pizer ought to consider switching Venturism back to Church of Venturism. Mike ought to consider wearing a black suit with a white collar. We ought to consider having Sunday service. If Mike and Dave aren't willing to do that, then I'm going to have to take a serious look at the transhumanist church. I have my differences with transhumanism, but we need an emergency church-- and the urgency grows the more I think about it. I think you're on the right track, Tex. I have lots of work to do today but will be back when Alcor posts their update, or this evening. I'll be watching and waiting for the Venturists to make a statement pretty soon-- one of the leaders must be checking into the Cafe from time to time. If there's nothing forthcoming, I'll email Mike early next week and ask for an official Venturist statement on the entire situation.
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