To tide you over until the next Imperium...

To tide you over until the next Imperium...

Zed
Zed

May 19th, 2003, 2:32 pm #1

Here's a game I started to try to provide a bit more challenge than RBMoo Imperium 1. I'm posting it here in the hopes that some others might care to try it so we can compare results.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Zed ... n_0001.zip

Parameters:
----------
Patch: Data patch with Colin's mod (same as Imperium 1)
Race: Silicoids (customized)
Map: Large 2-arm galaxy
Opponents: 5
Victory conditions: All enabled
Difficulty: Impossible

Special rules:
-------------
- No government changes (as Imp1) except on Turn 1.
- No combat ship may have speed less than 1/2 max or 1500, whichever is less (as Imp1).
- No TF larger than Wave may be constructed.
- No outpost ships may be constructed.

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Joined: April 16th, 2003, 1:31 pm

May 19th, 2003, 8:58 pm #2

I was all set to lay MoO aside for awhile. I mean, rts is not normally my thing, but Rise of Nations (= Fall of MoO???) comes out tomorrow and what I've read about the 'Risk-like' mode looks interesting...

However, since I seem to be the only one here who doesn't mind playing at the macro level, I'll have to see what I can manage so it can be compared to you micro guys.

The no outpost rule may throw me, though. What was your reason for that?

(Thanks for saving me $50.00 for now!)
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Zed
Zed

May 19th, 2003, 9:33 pm #3

One cheesy strategy with Silicoids is to expand everywhere as fast as possible, not bothering with defense, conquest, etc. and just spread like a plague across the galaxy to every possible planet -- ICS (Infinite Colony Sprawl) if you will. Since the AI is not overly aggressive they will usually just blockade a few colonies indefinitely. This is not really a problem; it's easy for silicoid colonies to be self-sufficient, since minerals can be gotten from any planet, and the AI will never invade, so you just ignore them and keep going.

Not allowing outposts is a way of slowing down the Silicoid expansion a bit and making sure they focus on the planets that are best for them first. Since their pop growth rate is low, if they are wanting to build reasonably productive colonies rather than just endless tiny ones they ought normally to be concentrating on building colony ships anyway. I have left few enough players in the galaxy that you should be able to colonize a decent section of space regardless.
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Sirian
Sirian

May 20th, 2003, 2:23 am #4

Here's a game I started to try to provide a bit more challenge than RBMoo Imperium 1. I'm posting it here in the hopes that some others might care to try it so we can compare results.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Zed ... n_0001.zip

Parameters:
----------
Patch: Data patch with Colin's mod (same as Imperium 1)
Race: Silicoids (customized)
Map: Large 2-arm galaxy
Opponents: 5
Victory conditions: All enabled
Difficulty: Impossible

Special rules:
-------------
- No government changes (as Imp1) except on Turn 1.
- No combat ship may have speed less than 1/2 max or 1500, whichever is less (as Imp1).
- No TF larger than Wave may be constructed.
- No outpost ships may be constructed.
This is a good idea. Normally I would participate, or even have just run another Imperium, but I am at the precipice here. My "fed-up meter" is running pretty high -- with MOO3 in its current state, and even with Civ3's few quirks and imbalances. I need to stay away from the current MOO3. I'll be back when the patch comes out.

Good luck with this one.

- Sirian
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Joined: April 16th, 2003, 1:31 pm

May 21st, 2003, 2:46 pm #5

Here's a game I started to try to provide a bit more challenge than RBMoo Imperium 1. I'm posting it here in the hopes that some others might care to try it so we can compare results.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Zed ... n_0001.zip

Parameters:
----------
Patch: Data patch with Colin's mod (same as Imperium 1)
Race: Silicoids (customized)
Map: Large 2-arm galaxy
Opponents: 5
Victory conditions: All enabled
Difficulty: Impossible

Special rules:
-------------
- No government changes (as Imp1) except on Turn 1.
- No combat ship may have speed less than 1/2 max or 1500, whichever is less (as Imp1).
- No TF larger than Wave may be constructed.
- No outpost ships may be constructed.
There is something odd going on in Zed's challenge game that I had personally not ever seen before. On the way to work this morning this is what popped into my head to explain it...

(I'll admit that I have NOT followed the two threads that seem to deal with this on AMoo too closely, but I don't think I've seen it posted as a bug all by itself, so since you guys are the ones who most likely can track this down and can tell me if I'm way off-base here or if it's been reported before, I'll give you first crack at it.)


I am keeping track of the Empire stats turn-by-turn just like I did for IG1. As I did this I noticed there was a point where the IPPs were going up, but the PPs were going down! This went on a couple of turns until I went in and manually jacked-up the MBQ spending on the home world. Things went well for a bit and then the same thing happened--increasing IPPs and decreasing PPs! I checked the stats from my IG1 and this NEVER happened--I had some temporary glitches when I had a mineral shortage but never anything like this.

The second time I went in to fix it I noticed the key factor--the NED still had 0% allocated to it even though I had scrapped a DEA to change it into something else a turn or two before and it was sitting there 0% completed.

FLASH! The viceroy gets screwed-up when the NED goes to zero! The NED goes to zero when all your DEAs are filled and you've run out of improvements to make to the existing DEAs. I had played most games with the default tech pace, then played a few 50-100 turn tests on Colin's mod, then I was playing the straight data patch--and in IG1 I accidentally ended-up using the normal data patch tech pace.

SO...

In the normal tech pace games, I would continually have stuff in the NED because the tech pace would keep improvements flowing in. So I never really hit the bug and didn't get frustrated at the incompetent viceroy. In this slowed-down game I filled my planet up and did not yet have any improvements and so the NED went to zero--yielding less and less productivity! This is exacerbated by the fact that the Silicoids expand so slowly that they can't settle new planets very quickly; when a new planet comes online it takes a while to fill up its DEAs and then make all the existing improvements you've discovered, and while it's getting up to speed it WILL be productive.

Thinking about the regular games I've played, the Silicoids are always behind simply because they DO fall prey to the NED 'bug.' Races with low research rates may not get the improvements fast enough to avoid it, either. So what you end up with is some completely unproductive planets, which leads to less ships which leads the viceroy to then build the smallest possible ships when something DOES finally get built, etc., etc.

Now it's possible that if I leave it completely alone that when I DO get a DEA-improving tech that the NED will come back to life and the bug will be gone--I can try to see if a push to Hyrodponics does anything. (Though I think I've read that if you have NO Bioharvests on a planet at all that Hydroponics won't get built. Sigh. It's the only tech that's close in this game...) If it does come back to life when you get a DEA improving tech then this may not be a 'bug' but a 'feature' to help build the planetary bank since normally there would not be too long a period where nothing could be improved. In either case, I think it's mostly an unintended result of the slowed tech pace--something that QSI would NOT have seen.

So does this jibe with what you've all seen and do you see something like this if you micromanage at the regular tech pace?

Apologies if this is old news...
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Sirian
Sirian

May 22nd, 2003, 1:13 am #6

First, although the econ panel calls that the "NED", please refer to it as the RBQ. That's what it is, after all.

Second, the viceroys are programmed not to build stuff you don't have the population to support. With the rocks especially, you can fall way behind the DEA curve.

Third, there IS some kind of bug in there that can cause the automation to stop adding items to the RBQ, but it's not tied to the queue going empty. I have been in that position many times, removed a DEA and had it immediately build a new one. You can't STOP it from adding items to the RBQ, in fact. Not even turning off the viceroy stops that.

I think there are two bugs in there: one with saving games in the middle of a turn (that seems to "corrupt" the saves somehow) and another where a planet has so many goodies to build and starts on "higher" ones, then never goes back to fill in the lower ones. These two issues may also be related.

My best advice would be to try to straighten out your saved games by loading up, resaving immediately at turn start, then loading again. See if that clears up the viceroy problem and report back.


- Sirian
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Joined: April 16th, 2003, 1:31 pm

May 22nd, 2003, 1:53 pm #7

Since I was closer to Spaceports than Hydroponics I made a push for that and like magic, the RBQ got a percentage assigned to it and the Empire PP total started increasing again, and tweaks to the MBQ tended to stick. But of course I had to load the game to get to that point.

I had not saved it along the way while I was playing and I usually save it right at the beginning of the turn, but every now and then I DO commission a spy or deploy a TF, etc. and then decide to quit for the night. So while I can't guarantee that I didn't save 'in the middle' of a turn I CAN say that it wasn't saved in the middle of the playing session.

This weekend I'll try to just start the game again and hit turn and watch what happens after all the DEAs get filled. If the same pattern of the Empire-wide PPs going down occurs...

Sure we'll disagree as to how the viceroy splits the money across the MBQ & RBQ but even for me, when all those IPPs are sitting there unused--not being driven at 1:1 for no reason--it's a bad thing. As long as SOMETHING is getting worked on I'll be happy!
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Joined: April 16th, 2003, 1:31 pm

May 22nd, 2003, 5:25 pm #8

I bet the viceroy was doing exactly what I told him to--under the dictates of Peace & Prosperity he can only spend 15% on military! When I get a chance to check I'll probably find that that limit meant my industry could not be driven at 1:1 on the 'finished' planet! Sigh.

With the low pop numbers I know I wasn't getting much in the way of tax revenue, and the small pop increases must make industry more effective quicker than it adds tax AUs. In other words, it looks like I have to learn to start playing with the tax rates and/or switching in and out of Peace & Prosperity--especially for the Silicoids.

This could give that 'Front' menu on the victory screen even more of a reason for use. I assume that when I'm at Peace & Quiet it'll use my normal Peace & Prosperity setting, but if I switch it to Total War on a certain front then planets 'on that front' will obey THAT sort of military build scheme. Very handy if it works. It implies that doing so when you're ostensibly at peace with your neighbor could cause diplomatic repercussions, though.

Why is it I only think of these things when I'm NOT sitting there playing the game?

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Zed
Zed

May 26th, 2003, 3:55 pm #9

Here's a game I started to try to provide a bit more challenge than RBMoo Imperium 1. I'm posting it here in the hopes that some others might care to try it so we can compare results.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Zed ... n_0001.zip

Parameters:
----------
Patch: Data patch with Colin's mod (same as Imperium 1)
Race: Silicoids (customized)
Map: Large 2-arm galaxy
Opponents: 5
Victory conditions: All enabled
Difficulty: Impossible

Special rules:
-------------
- No government changes (as Imp1) except on Turn 1.
- No combat ship may have speed less than 1/2 max or 1500, whichever is less (as Imp1).
- No TF larger than Wave may be constructed.
- No outpost ships may be constructed.
We ought to have a patch soon (in the next week or two) so if you want to give the pre-patch version a last hurrah, now's your chance.
.
.
.
What, no takers? Ok, not that surprising after all...

Anyway, the game is not turning out the way I had envisioned it would. I will probably keep playing it off and on but will can it once the code patch is out. I decided that since this is not a competition game and since I expect there to be a significant chance of my not completing the game before the code patch arrives, I wanted to publish my results to date.

Here's the skinny -- the player is playing a crippled silicoid race. I set every possible attribute at the minimum values and sold off all freebies, including setting the home planet at poor/unfertile. Another unintended challenge that I realized after posting the game is that these Silicoids have basically no level 5 weapons in their tree visible at the start (no Quark cannon, Fusion cannon, nada) and no bioharvest/mining DEA improvements. Still, as of ~turn 80 I am #2 in the powergraph behind the NOs, and though I am way behind in tech I have the pop power to expect to be able to catch up eventually. Not what I had in mind to start with; I was expecting to have to climb out of a deep hole, but it turns out that there was a ladder handy.

Here's how that happened:
- early on, I found a wormhole chokepoint, and scouted out Eoladi and Klackon empires near there. Built a couple transport CLs and some infantry (corps-size formations)
- captured a defenseless early Eoladi colony at the wormhole chokepoint, made friends with them thereafter, am now good buddies
- foresaw bad relations with the Klackons, captured a couple of their defenseless early expansion colonies on the other side of the wormhole
- eventually captured a 3rd Klackon defenseless expansion colony, despite having basically no fleet other than my system ships at the wormhole chokepoint & a few scout/blockade LR ships
- settled colonies on 3 magnates so far, working on a 4th
- all of these have given me a ton of free resettlement outposts which are slowly growing into productive colonies. I have basically 3 planets that are useful silicoid colonies, including the home planet -- I have just sent out my first 3 colony starships to non-magnate planets since my free starting one -- but I have over five times that many non-silicoid planets.
- I am at war with the Klackons but the best they have been able to do was blockade a couple of the colonies I took from them, one of which was reasonably well-developed and I have been able to keep, the other of which was indefensible and I have given away to the NOs. They have lost a number of ships attacking my wormhole defenses and my viable blockaded colony; right now they can outproduce me militarily speaking, but the balance of power should be shifting over the next 20-40 turns or so, though of course they will still have the tech edge at that point.

I will say that without magnates and ability to quickly absorb a couple of early enemy colonies with basically no cost, this could have been a very different game. Initial expansion was not just slow, it was glacial, and my 3 earliest planets are still not what I would call powerhouses -- they have both just recently finished building all their DEAs, as I diverted significant production to piracy-suppression from these planets in part because their pop growth rate was just too slow to support faster economic development. The piracy suppression was needed mainly due to the developing Eoladi colonies in my home system...

If I were to re-attempt this scenario, I would have to make some changes. I might cripple the player race a bit less but put more restrictions on player expansion via capturing AI colonies in the first 100 turns or so. I expect/hope the magnate spreading problem will probably be resolved by the code patch so I'd give it a try before putting more rules in on that.

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grinningman
grinningman

May 27th, 2003, 6:24 am #10

This is my first post here, so hello everyone.

I did play this, but I haven't written up a report (I also played the Imperium, but didn't write up a report for that, either. A combination of business and laziness.)

I noticed my homeworld was poor and similar early on. That, along with the tiny smattering of techs that were available for research, and seeing "Silicoid" as a reason for unrest made me guess that you had a lot of points left over when you customized. Probably the most possible points you could have left over . I thought that you were even mean enough to restart until you got a game where you were missing deep extraction mining.

My style is to try to expand as much as possible while still being as nice as I can to everyone - partly because I feel mean bombing other people's planets, and partly because I find it a pain to organise an invasion in Moo3. So I expand as much as possible without treading on anyone's toes, then consolidate and win via senate victory or the X win. I don't have the patience for a sole survivor victory.

This meant that I suffered a senate loss in this game. I foolishly didn't colonise any magnates or capture any other races. I expanded at my own, as Zed said, 'glacial' pace. I think I lost around turn 250ish. I still have 5-10 save games from my effort, if anyone wants to know any more details.
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