Some experience starting 1.10s as a nudist...

Some experience starting 1.10s as a nudist...

Thecla
Thecla

August 12th, 2003, 1:30 am #1

....if anyones still interested.

As a dutiful so-called "beta-tester", I upgraded to 1.10s, even though it deletes essentially all existing 1.10 items (I was left with some gems, a couple of formerly socketed items without their runes, a few potions, and 200K).

My 1.10 bowazon was lvl 74 in the hell act III jungles, and I figured I would see what it was like to tackle hell starting out with nothing.

The answer, surprisingly, is that it's not a whole lot different from before, at least with this character. It's slower, yes, but then it was slow before. Mostly this just goes to show that the stuff I'd found going through the game in 1.10 wasn't worth much, and I might just as well have been using only a short bow and some arrows.. (I've since acquired some very ordinary 1.10s equipment e.g. blue +47 life belt, +27% light res armor, -14 da amulet, +2 to bow skills gloves, a prismatic/leech circlet, some rare boots with 10% fast run and a little fire resist, and a rare 19 da bow.)

My two main attacks are a maxed immolation arrow (which, in hell, feels like it has about the same effect as a normal arrow attack used to have: it's no uber-killing-skill, and I've played exclusively in player 1) and a maxed valkyrie. Immo + valk for non-fire immunes; valk + a lvl 1 supporting freezing arrow (for chill) or guided arrow/normal attack (for poison) for fire-immunes; and "here look at my decoy for a bit while we move right along to the next monster" for fire+physical immunes.

I now have a 19 max da rare bow (with +1 to bow skills, and a little cold+poison da), but since I'd long ago given up using direct physical da, and since my valk puts me to shame in that department anyway, it really doesn't make much difference. I'm still guzzling mana pots at a ferocious rate, faster than before but the order of magnitude is the same. (My bowazon was intended as a standard strafe/multishot bowazon with immo as a backup, without realizing that doesn't seem to work now without an uber-bow, so she doesn't really have the appropriate mana pool for a continual use of elemental arrows.)

Negative resistances, originally -80% and now in the -40% to -80% range, or a very small fast-run/walk % say, don't matter so much when you have a beefy valk to take the brunt of the attacks and a decoy to throw around. (I'm beginning to reconsider my "nerf-the-valk" recommendation; it's about the only thing that makes the game half-way playable.)

I haven't used my Act II might merc consistently (he died too easily before anyway, and he lost all his equipment too); but I'm considering switching to an Act I rogue who'll at least stay out of trouble while my valk tanks. Might is pretty useless anyway, as would be the case for prayer and defiance. Perhaps a holy freeze merc would be useful, but he'd still get himself killed.

Maybe half-a-dozen deaths so far (now lvl 77 and in the outer steppes of Act IV), all to champion or boss packs, but -- for example -- the run from clearing Travincal and the high council to killing Mephisto took maybe 3 hours with no deaths (Meph seems to have become even more badly short-sighted in 1.10). It probably wouldn't have made that much difference if I still had all of my 1.10 gear.

I don't now how much this generalizes to other classes, but it looks to me --- not that this is earthshattering news --- that there will be a huge gulf ("the gap") in 1.10 between basically untwinked characters who will need to depend on some sort of high lvl skills to do their damage (if they have them -- other builds need not apply -- and obviously hugely favoring spell-casters over meleers), and massively twinked characters with high end elite uniques, rune words etc. who might be able to make a bowazon using strafe, say, or a ww-barb effective. At any rate, I don't think they've managed to rescue the game from its own overpowered items.
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Zed
Zed

August 12th, 2003, 12:27 pm #2

... that wasn't their intent. Their intent was to make the game even more dependent on uber-cheesy goodness.
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Thecla
Thecla

August 12th, 2003, 6:29 pm #3

...I'm sure many people will agree with your explanation, but I don't think it's the full story (though, no doubt, they did want to add plenty of appealing new cheese for the rats).


Here's what Isolde (one of the patch programmers) said over on the LL back in May:

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/inde ... ar=1&st=20


That depends on what you want. Most of the new uniques in 1.10 were designed around giving odd abilities, themes, etc. without (hopefully) being either overpowered or useless. However, a few of the items do stand out from the rest because there's a lot of pressure to have some slobber fodder in the patch. Azurewrath is one of these "special" items, and it seems awfully powerful. I don't think it's the end-all be-all of weapons though.

Some (by no means all) of the goals of the patch included:
* providing a more interesting play experience (more variety, greater challenge)
* enough new rewards to peak the interest of all the players
* not nerfing anything
* not make it impossible for non-uber characters
* promote a greater variety in build styles

Some of these goals have mutually conflicting vectors and this patch has been anything but easy in the making. When you've already given the players items like WF, how do you give them anything else to strive for? If you do give them something "better" how do you make the game more challenging? And if you do make the game more challenging, what happens to the players that don't have WF or "better"? Anyway, most of these problems are pretty obvious to the people who read this forum.

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss <i>everybody
off.

So, that probably doesn't do anything to answer your question. Oh well </i>
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Joined: March 5th, 2001, 7:01 pm

August 12th, 2003, 7:22 pm #4

Hi,

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss everybody off.

Of course it will. That it does is a direct consequence of:

Some of these goals have mutually conflicting vectors

Basically, when you've got people who want to make the game more challenging and people who want to make it cheesier and you try to please both you'll please neither. All that you end up doing is making the game more complex without changing anything of importance or interest.

Of course, I am prejudiced in the matter, but let's consider the realities: Who is going to still be playing a game that is over three years old? I suspect that mostly it will be hard core gamers, the kiddies will have moved on to new games six times in that period. So, perhaps, Buzzard would have been wiser to try to please that group (hard core gamers) rather than try to please everyone. And what did hard core gamers want? Well, first a relative bug free game. I mean, is it too much to ask that the information screens actually give valid information? Next, a relatively balanced game instead of one where long periods of repetitive tedium are interspersed by occasional impossible bosses. Balance of each class versus the monsters, not balance between the classes. And a game with more potential variety. Sure, with perseverance bordering on mania a variant scum can take the most improbable builds through the game. But how about the average player -- wouldn't a few equally good builds in each class be desirable.

What, apparently, Buzzard still doesn't understand is the concept of scaling. If all Hit Points are increased by a factor of ten and all damages are likewise increased by the same factor, there is no difference! Overall, that is what Buzzard has done (with a few nerfing exceptions) in all the patches that have supposedly made changes in the game difficulty, and that is what they seem to have done again.

Buzzard's fundamental flaw is that they want to be all things to all players and they want to do that without incorporating a real difficulty level system. That, and of course the arrogance to think that they and they alone know best.

--Pete
Last edited by --Pete on August 12th, 2003, 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ashock
Ashock

August 12th, 2003, 7:37 pm #5

I dunno about other characters, but while monster HPs have been more than doubled, Barbs are actually weaker.

The end result is not a more challenging game, but a more frustrating and tedious one.
Also, if you took a look at the new Uniques, they are in most cases inferior to the top Uniques of 1.09. Rune words are really powerful, but the better ones require very rare runes and will probably take a very long time to get, for laddr characters. Of course once the duping commences, it won't take that long, but we're not concerned with duping, I think.





-A


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Occhi
Occhi

August 12th, 2003, 8:15 pm #6

Hi,

Only one thing's certain: the patch will somehow manage to piss everybody off.

Of course it will. That it does is a direct consequence of:

Some of these goals have mutually conflicting vectors

Basically, when you've got people who want to make the game more challenging and people who want to make it cheesier and you try to please both you'll please neither. All that you end up doing is making the game more complex without changing anything of importance or interest.

Of course, I am prejudiced in the matter, but let's consider the realities: Who is going to still be playing a game that is over three years old? I suspect that mostly it will be hard core gamers, the kiddies will have moved on to new games six times in that period. So, perhaps, Buzzard would have been wiser to try to please that group (hard core gamers) rather than try to please everyone. And what did hard core gamers want? Well, first a relative bug free game. I mean, is it too much to ask that the information screens actually give valid information? Next, a relatively balanced game instead of one where long periods of repetitive tedium are interspersed by occasional impossible bosses. Balance of each class versus the monsters, not balance between the classes. And a game with more potential variety. Sure, with perseverance bordering on mania a variant scum can take the most improbable builds through the game. But how about the average player -- wouldn't a few equally good builds in each class be desirable.

What, apparently, Buzzard still doesn't understand is the concept of scaling. If all Hit Points are increased by a factor of ten and all damages are likewise increased by the same factor, there is no difference! Overall, that is what Buzzard has done (with a few nerfing exceptions) in all the patches that have supposedly made changes in the game difficulty, and that is what they seem to have done again.

Buzzard's fundamental flaw is that they want to be all things to all players and they want to do that without incorporating a real difficulty level system. That, and of course the arrogance to think that they and they alone know best.

--Pete
So, perhaps, Buzzard would have been wiser to try to please that group (hard core gamers) rather than try to please everyone.

But how about the average player -- wouldn't a few equally good builds in each class be desirable?

So, is the average player also a hardcore player? I suppose at the three year mark, yes.

Just teasing.

It seemed to me that a bug removal focus and a modest balance adjustment would be "the best use of their time." Guessed wrong.

The fact that we are looking at a Mod strikes me as "the road to hell being paved with good intentions." Adding new stuff is bound to increase, not decrease, bug probability.

Looks for a can of Raid
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Thecla
Thecla

August 13th, 2003, 9:44 am #7

I dunno about other characters, but while monster HPs have been more than doubled, Barbs are actually weaker.

The end result is not a more challenging game, but a more frustrating and tedious one.
Also, if you took a look at the new Uniques, they are in most cases inferior to the top Uniques of 1.09. Rune words are really powerful, but the better ones require very rare runes and will probably take a very long time to get, for laddr characters. Of course once the duping commences, it won't take that long, but we're not concerned with duping, I think.





-A

...zons are a lot weaker too -- there are a couple of bug fixes (piercing guided arrow and the conversion of physical da to fire da in fire arrow for PIs) plus the effective nerf of physical da and leech --- as in Pete's scaling comment, why is raising monster hps and keeping da the same not nerfing, but keeping monster hps the same and reducing da nerfing? The truth is a lot of 1.09 builds have been rendered pretty ineffective in 1.10, absent lems, vexs, chams or whatever.

Although I haven't tried any other chars, I'd guess that, with average equipment, a warcries/concentrate (say) barb would be about as fast and effective in 1.10 as my immo/valk zon.
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Ashock
Ashock

August 13th, 2003, 7:02 pm #8

My problem is that without an effective WW, to me a Barb is very boring. I've tried Concentrate and I fall asleep. I've tried Frenzy and I snooze a lot. Without really top gear, a WW Barb is no longer playable beyond Nitemare. Oh, he can be played, but it is so slow and so tedious that it completely defeats the purpose of playing, which is to have fun. So for me personally, unless WW is bumped up in damage, I will amazingly enough stop playing the Barb. Well, at least until I can find real good gear for him, by my Zealot. Obviously I don't have to play ladder and I can xfer some good stuff to a new Barb, but I do want a fresh start.

In any case, it does not look like this patch will keep my interest for too long, even when it goes live.


Too bad.




-A

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Joined: March 5th, 2001, 7:01 pm

August 14th, 2003, 2:34 am #9

So, perhaps, Buzzard would have been wiser to try to please that group (hard core gamers) rather than try to please everyone.

But how about the average player -- wouldn't a few equally good builds in each class be desirable?

So, is the average player also a hardcore player? I suppose at the three year mark, yes.

Just teasing.

It seemed to me that a bug removal focus and a modest balance adjustment would be "the best use of their time." Guessed wrong.

The fact that we are looking at a Mod strikes me as "the road to hell being paved with good intentions." Adding new stuff is bound to increase, not decrease, bug probability.

Looks for a can of Raid
Hi,

So, perhaps, Buzzard would have been wiser to try to please that group (hard core gamers) rather than try to please everyone.

But how about the average player -- wouldn't a few equally good builds in each class be desirable?


So, is the average player also a hardcore player? I suppose at the three year mark, yes.


In the first sentence I was distinguishing between the hard core gamers and the kiddies that buy a new game each week. In the second sentence I was distinguishing between the normal, sane hard core gamers and the variant scum. On the board of the totally insane, those on lithium are king

--Pete
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Occhi
Occhi

August 14th, 2003, 7:16 pm #10

. . . than there are horses."

The aforementioned kiddies seem to provide the data for proof of that, I suppose, once they hit bnet and adapt to the lowest common denominator style.

Oh, and I'll have a double dose of lithium, please, thanks for reminding me.
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