RBGC SG5 -- Training Day

RBGC SG5 -- Training Day

Joined: August 20th, 2003, 3:43 pm

March 5th, 2004, 4:12 am #1

Time to post some specifics about the next RBGC succession game. I will be hosting this game, which will follow the best of the Civ3 training day game traditions.

Version: GalCiv Standard 1.20.086 (latest issue from Stardock, available either as a stand alone patch or from Stardock Central)
Difficulty: Painful (All intelligent AIs)
Galaxy Stats: Huge, Loose, Common
Party: Technologists
Bonus Picks: 3 picks sensors (+4) and range (+1), 1 picks each influence (+10%), morale (+10%), trade (+10%), and weapons (+15%)
Victory Type: Any

Varient Rules: No selling techs for cash. This is a crutch that is not present on higher difficulty levels, so we will train without it.

I have picked the map size and habitability to get a somewhat longer game. No speed picks and loose clusters means we will have to think through settling strategy. Party choice is to help the team develop use of SiBCaT (in other words, learning to manage free research when the game does not correctly display it).

Now, for the complicated part . I am going to run this similar to the PROD TDG that Sirian ran (TBC should be having flashbacks). Here's how it will go, to paraphrase and quote from the PROD Thread (thanks, Sirian)...

Rather than play as a normal SG rotation, with me taking a turn every so often as I come up, and same for others, I'm going to play the whole game -- AND so is everybody else. However, instead of each playing the game separately, there will be one Official Game, progressing like a typical Succession Game.

It's going to look something like this:

Turn Order:
Bam-Bam
Player 3
Player 4
Player 5
Player 6


Year 1, 2178AD is posted and everybody plays. Everybody posts their turn report, including me, and I will always post my version of the save game. I'll offer my view of each player's moves, the good, the bad, the ugly. Questions are welcome, then at some point we move to next turn.

Since I was "Up", my save game is used by everybody, to start from for the next turn. Everybody plays and posts a report, and I will always post my version of the save. In this case, however, Player 2 is up, so he should also post his save. I'll offer feedback based on the reports (the more detail you put in your report, the more I can examine and critique, so you'll get out of it what you put in to it.) After the analysis is done, we move to next turn.

Since Player 2 was "up", his save is used by everybody to start the current round. And on and on it goes. Everybody plays the whole game and gets continuous critiquing (according to how detailed their reports are) and they get to see what I do in the exact same situations -- and those who are on the roster also get as much input into the course of events of the "Official Results" as they would in a standard succession game.

A little complex-sounding, but in practice it will be smooth and easy to deal with. I'll handle directing the traffic and keeping track of what's where.


THE RULES:

* When you are Up, you are REQUIRED to play, and to do so in a timely fashion.

* When you are not Up, you are not required to play, but are strongly encouraged to play as much as you can. The more you play, the more critique you can get.

* No critiquing of other player's results, except by me. If you are playing in this game, then by definition you're no expert. This rule is aimed at keeping each player's focus on their own performance and development, and off of getting into comparisons with the other players, and to minimize any chance for hostilities. Questions involving "what if" scenerios, regarding other players' results, are OK.

* No question is too dumb, no move too weedy, no results too poor. Nobody will be dropped or turned away for lack of skill or experience. This is your chance to stop being a wallflower and get out onto the dance floor.

* When you are Up, your results will be official, whether they are good, bad, or ugly. When you're not up, feel free to try stuff out, to take risks or do things you wouldn't normally ever dare, to see where it leads -- or play as if you were Up. Your choice.

* 24 hours for the player who is Up Next to acknowledge that they have Got It and are playing. This is a HARD RULE, so when you are On Deck or your turn is upcoming, you need to make sure you take time out to keep an eye on the board. If you do not acknowledge within 24 hours, you will be skipped as far as being Up and having your results affect the Official outcome.

* 96 hours maximum between every one year (12 turns) round. If the playing and reports and analysis finish early, we'll move on early. If 96 hours comes around, we'll move on regardless.

There will be a thread for the Official Game. What shall be posted there is the reports and results of the player who is Up on each turn, along with my critique and any questions and answers players have in regard to those results.

* The Shadow thread will handle everything else, including the turn reports of all players not Up on that turn, all critiques of these reports, and even my own reports from my shadow turns.

* Players who are UP should avoid reading any further in the shadow thread once others start posting shadow reports from the same turn. That is, it's OK to refer back to the shadow thread as a reference, but I ask that you not do so when you're Up, especially in regard to finding out what others have done on the turn you're about to play, so that your official turn results will be as "pure" as you can manage under these conditions.

Similar to Sirian's desire in the original PROD, I do not plan on running this as a typical SG. This will be a bit of sink or swim, with me saying little or nothing in advance, and then commenting on the results. There are many ways to do things successfully in this game. I am not at all interested in copying my gameplay, or in showing formulaic methods to succeed. The intent is to offer thoughts into what tactics and strategies are strong or weak, risky, safe, uninformed, or weedy about your decisions; i.e., help teach you how to strategize, not what to think.

So far we have Brackard stating interest. Drasca piped up a few threads back, and Lee expressed interest, but puckered a bit at the difficulty level.

So--the roster is completely open, in my book. Players should be those who are not quite comfortable at or above Painful.

I will be posting this information at Stardock either tonight or tomorrow. Sign up either here or there, or both. Once we have a team assembled, I will open threads ove at CivFanatics, post the starting save, and provide some logistics instructions for save games/screenshot nomenclature and the like.

- Bam-Bam
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Joined: February 12th, 2003, 9:16 pm

March 5th, 2004, 1:26 pm #2

Once again, sign me up. This sounds like exactly what I need. I'm looking forward to it.
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Sirian
Sirian

March 5th, 2004, 6:15 pm #3

Time to post some specifics about the next RBGC succession game. I will be hosting this game, which will follow the best of the Civ3 training day game traditions.

Version: GalCiv Standard 1.20.086 (latest issue from Stardock, available either as a stand alone patch or from Stardock Central)
Difficulty: Painful (All intelligent AIs)
Galaxy Stats: Huge, Loose, Common
Party: Technologists
Bonus Picks: 3 picks sensors (+4) and range (+1), 1 picks each influence (+10%), morale (+10%), trade (+10%), and weapons (+15%)
Victory Type: Any

Varient Rules: No selling techs for cash. This is a crutch that is not present on higher difficulty levels, so we will train without it.

I have picked the map size and habitability to get a somewhat longer game. No speed picks and loose clusters means we will have to think through settling strategy. Party choice is to help the team develop use of SiBCaT (in other words, learning to manage free research when the game does not correctly display it).

Now, for the complicated part . I am going to run this similar to the PROD TDG that Sirian ran (TBC should be having flashbacks). Here's how it will go, to paraphrase and quote from the PROD Thread (thanks, Sirian)...

Rather than play as a normal SG rotation, with me taking a turn every so often as I come up, and same for others, I'm going to play the whole game -- AND so is everybody else. However, instead of each playing the game separately, there will be one Official Game, progressing like a typical Succession Game.

It's going to look something like this:

Turn Order:
Bam-Bam
Player 3
Player 4
Player 5
Player 6


Year 1, 2178AD is posted and everybody plays. Everybody posts their turn report, including me, and I will always post my version of the save game. I'll offer my view of each player's moves, the good, the bad, the ugly. Questions are welcome, then at some point we move to next turn.

Since I was "Up", my save game is used by everybody, to start from for the next turn. Everybody plays and posts a report, and I will always post my version of the save. In this case, however, Player 2 is up, so he should also post his save. I'll offer feedback based on the reports (the more detail you put in your report, the more I can examine and critique, so you'll get out of it what you put in to it.) After the analysis is done, we move to next turn.

Since Player 2 was "up", his save is used by everybody to start the current round. And on and on it goes. Everybody plays the whole game and gets continuous critiquing (according to how detailed their reports are) and they get to see what I do in the exact same situations -- and those who are on the roster also get as much input into the course of events of the "Official Results" as they would in a standard succession game.

A little complex-sounding, but in practice it will be smooth and easy to deal with. I'll handle directing the traffic and keeping track of what's where.


THE RULES:

* When you are Up, you are REQUIRED to play, and to do so in a timely fashion.

* When you are not Up, you are not required to play, but are strongly encouraged to play as much as you can. The more you play, the more critique you can get.

* No critiquing of other player's results, except by me. If you are playing in this game, then by definition you're no expert. This rule is aimed at keeping each player's focus on their own performance and development, and off of getting into comparisons with the other players, and to minimize any chance for hostilities. Questions involving "what if" scenerios, regarding other players' results, are OK.

* No question is too dumb, no move too weedy, no results too poor. Nobody will be dropped or turned away for lack of skill or experience. This is your chance to stop being a wallflower and get out onto the dance floor.

* When you are Up, your results will be official, whether they are good, bad, or ugly. When you're not up, feel free to try stuff out, to take risks or do things you wouldn't normally ever dare, to see where it leads -- or play as if you were Up. Your choice.

* 24 hours for the player who is Up Next to acknowledge that they have Got It and are playing. This is a HARD RULE, so when you are On Deck or your turn is upcoming, you need to make sure you take time out to keep an eye on the board. If you do not acknowledge within 24 hours, you will be skipped as far as being Up and having your results affect the Official outcome.

* 96 hours maximum between every one year (12 turns) round. If the playing and reports and analysis finish early, we'll move on early. If 96 hours comes around, we'll move on regardless.

There will be a thread for the Official Game. What shall be posted there is the reports and results of the player who is Up on each turn, along with my critique and any questions and answers players have in regard to those results.

* The Shadow thread will handle everything else, including the turn reports of all players not Up on that turn, all critiques of these reports, and even my own reports from my shadow turns.

* Players who are UP should avoid reading any further in the shadow thread once others start posting shadow reports from the same turn. That is, it's OK to refer back to the shadow thread as a reference, but I ask that you not do so when you're Up, especially in regard to finding out what others have done on the turn you're about to play, so that your official turn results will be as "pure" as you can manage under these conditions.

Similar to Sirian's desire in the original PROD, I do not plan on running this as a typical SG. This will be a bit of sink or swim, with me saying little or nothing in advance, and then commenting on the results. There are many ways to do things successfully in this game. I am not at all interested in copying my gameplay, or in showing formulaic methods to succeed. The intent is to offer thoughts into what tactics and strategies are strong or weak, risky, safe, uninformed, or weedy about your decisions; i.e., help teach you how to strategize, not what to think.

So far we have Brackard stating interest. Drasca piped up a few threads back, and Lee expressed interest, but puckered a bit at the difficulty level.

So--the roster is completely open, in my book. Players should be those who are not quite comfortable at or above Painful.

I will be posting this information at Stardock either tonight or tomorrow. Sign up either here or there, or both. Once we have a team assembled, I will open threads ove at CivFanatics, post the starting save, and provide some logistics instructions for save games/screenshot nomenclature and the like.

- Bam-Bam
Takes a lot of effort to manage one of these, but I know you're up to the task. Here's hoping for a hefty dose of interest and participation, both from RB players and lurkers at large.

- Sirian
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Joined: February 12th, 2003, 9:16 pm

March 5th, 2004, 9:26 pm #4

Once again, sign me up. This sounds like exactly what I need. I'm looking forward to it.
I know this is a training game, but will it really matter early game the potential spoilers via the ‘shadows’. For example, I’m second on the list and am shadowing the start. The first player heads west while I head east. He find nothing, but the shadow game finds a nice planet. If I’m next in line, I’ll have this info to work off of. Will this make a difference in the game or doesn't it matter?
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Sirian
Sirian

March 5th, 2004, 10:25 pm #5

There's no way to fully negate their effects, but do your best to act on the information coming through the Official turns, and not from the shadows. Otherwise, you'll be tying BamBam's hands, and you'll be hearing feedback about spoilers rather than about strategy.

This approach has its drawbacks, but the plusses outweigh them. Nobody's really there to PLAY, but to experiment and to learn. You'll learn more comparing to what several others did from the same situation, time and again, than you lose from spoilers. The more you can compartmentalize spoilers, though, the better. In fact, there is additional analysis involved, since you have to figure out what you would do from what you know, then also analyze what you COULD do if you didn't know the spoilers.

Uh... bring your thinking cap. And don't worry about it too much. If anything goes wrong, it's BamBam's fault. If it's not BamBam's fault, see previous remark. Captain goes down with the ship, etc.


- Sirian
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Bam-Bam
Bam-Bam

March 6th, 2004, 1:31 am #6

I know this is a training game, but will it really matter early game the potential spoilers via the ‘shadows’. For example, I’m second on the list and am shadowing the start. The first player heads west while I head east. He find nothing, but the shadow game finds a nice planet. If I’m next in line, I’ll have this info to work off of. Will this make a difference in the game or doesn't it matter?
Spoilers are unavoidable, yes. That's the cost of having everyone play the whole game and report on it. The benefit of seeing other's play, whether weedy or good, and my critique of their play will greatly outweigh the cost of spoiler information.

That being said, I do have the expectation that folks will attempt to compartmentalize the spoilers as best they can. Of course, all of us will be influenced by the increased information--all I can ask is that we think a bit and try to act on only the Official Game information. None of us will be perfect, but if you are willing to play the game, then you have enough smarts to make the attempt.

Yeah--if things don't work out--I'll go down with the ship. Your training is in my hands, aye.
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Joined: February 12th, 2003, 9:16 pm

March 6th, 2004, 3:18 am #7

Sorry if these seem trivial, just tossing out things that keep coming up. As far as the shadow turns go, will we have any kind of goal for that year, or will it be whatever we think we should do.

Say for instance, after the initial colony build, the 'active' player decides to begin researching up the diplomacy tree. I tend to take the low greens first (med theory, basic env) before beginning the trek up yellow. It could be several years before the 'active' player hits these techs, but under what I 'think' I should be doing, I theoretically could be researching those techs several shadow years in a row.

So will we have like an objective of 'this year we will arm up to attack planet xyz' or 'this year we will concentrate on research in order to get to trade good abc'. Maybe not that specific, but something specific enough so that we have something to compare, but not enough direction that we all have the same thing?
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Bam-Bam
Bam-Bam

March 6th, 2004, 10:27 pm #8

Each shadow year will take its start from the Official Game save. So even if you were to take a different research route for your shadow turns in year 20xx, your shadow turns for year 20xx +1 would start from the state of play of the last Official game turn. You will not be running a shadow game that departs from the official game for very long. Make sense?

Don't worry about asking questions, better to understand the water temperature before we jump in.
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Sirian
Sirian

March 7th, 2004, 1:51 am #9

Sorry if these seem trivial, just tossing out things that keep coming up. As far as the shadow turns go, will we have any kind of goal for that year, or will it be whatever we think we should do.

Say for instance, after the initial colony build, the 'active' player decides to begin researching up the diplomacy tree. I tend to take the low greens first (med theory, basic env) before beginning the trek up yellow. It could be several years before the 'active' player hits these techs, but under what I 'think' I should be doing, I theoretically could be researching those techs several shadow years in a row.

So will we have like an objective of 'this year we will arm up to attack planet xyz' or 'this year we will concentrate on research in order to get to trade good abc'. Maybe not that specific, but something specific enough so that we have something to compare, but not enough direction that we all have the same thing?
In general, you should make the moves you believe to be the best ones, even if the moves are similar to ones you did in the previous shadow. Realize that each round will be judged on its own merit, though, so the context of the critiques you receive could change, even if the moves are nearly identical. That is, BamBam's perception of what is strong and wise may change, even if yours did not. Make sense?

You can also use your shadow to experiment with something you haven't tried, which is also valid, whether or not the moves you make are the ones you believe to be the strongest.

Hope that helps.


- Sirian
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Joined: February 12th, 2003, 9:16 pm

March 7th, 2004, 2:36 am #10

Yep, that's the answer I was looking for. I'm really looking forward to this. Hope we can get this off the ground.
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