Info on why the AI builds so many...

Info on why the AI builds so many...

Ozymandous
Ozymandous

June 9th, 2003, 2:06 am #1

System colony ships.

http://www.ina-community.com/forums/sho ... did=299792

Apparently the AI now builds system colonies until there are no further planets to colonize in a system. At least that's my impression of this thread.

No wonder the AI seemed tougher, they have full systems now!
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Sirian
Sirian

June 9th, 2003, 2:12 am #2

That is the most encouraging news I've heard out of the patch. Perhaps someone at QS tuned in to all my endless whiny complaints about the pathetic AI growth curve in my feedback to Colin while he was developing his mod. Or maybe they came to it some other way.

If true, this would give the AI a lot more teeth.


- Sirian
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Ozymandous
Ozymandous

June 9th, 2003, 2:22 am #3

This is true. I have seen AI systems (not their main system) that have every planet either settled or partially settled (Y/R worlds) by turn 40 or so when I stumble across them while scouting. This is on hard level BTW.

Nothing quite like seeing a 7-8 planet system teeming with AI colonies to go "oh crap, maybe I need to rethink that invasion." Of course the question is how well can the AI handle settling all those red/yellow sub optimal gravity worlds, and I haven't played enough to check on that either.
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Jaxom
Jaxom

June 9th, 2003, 3:39 am #4

System colony ships.

http://www.ina-community.com/forums/sho ... did=299792

Apparently the AI now builds system colonies until there are no further planets to colonize in a system. At least that's my impression of this thread.

No wonder the AI seemed tougher, they have full systems now!
that the AI builds system colony ships before defense bases. In my first post-patch game, playing stock Klakon on hard, I have conquered most of my Sakkra neighbor including their home world by turn 50, when I reached number 2 on the powergraph. This was done using 4 frigate size carriers and 8 corvette size recon ships. By turn 75, the Sakkra empire is history and I am number one on the powergraph. I have found the number 3 empire ( the NO being number 2) and I have twice as many worlds and almost three times his population. I am only beginning to build colony ships to settle the 20 systems strongly secured behind my former Sakkra attack fleet.

Now I am glad the AI will actually settle the planets in systems under his control, but if it is done at the expense of early defenses, it is not a very sound strategy.
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Zed
Zed

June 9th, 2003, 11:27 am #5

Planetary bases are cheap to build, and now much more effective deterrence. Did you have to fight your way through any/many of those? I agree that the AI should place more emphasis on them if it's still quite simple to take out the AI early on.

I'd also suggest that beam bases should have their Multifire x 10 removed and reduce their FireDlay from 2.5 down to 0.1 - 0.2 or so. Assuming that's not buggy, it would help a lot in dealing with enemy fighters and missiles.

OTOH, it may be the case that many of their colonies were still in the fledgling "can't build anything yet" stage, in which case only a fleet would be able to defend them. Did most of the colonies you captured already have some DEAs built?
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Jaxom
Jaxom

June 9th, 2003, 12:55 pm #6

At least 4 of the planets I conquered had all the DEA built but 1 or 2 which may have been destroyed in the battle. Even the home world had 0 defense bases and only the 3 starting system ships. To tell you the truth, I was rather surprized. I send a squadron of 1 carrier and 2 recons to probe the homeworld and gauge how many ships I would need. As it turned out, I only needed another squadron to take care of his homeworld and a couple more squadrons to handle his reserve of starships.

On the plus side, by turn 85 my trilarian neighbor, who was now second on the powergraph, finally realized his colony ships were not swalloded by a black hole so he sent a single SR ship to break my blockade. His single ship destroyed a couple of squadrons of carrier ships as if they were scout ships. It turns out that even thought I have twice as many planets as he does, his average tech level is twice as high as mine. It looks like I will need all that extra production to build enough ships to contain the savant fish.
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Joined: November 16th, 2001, 10:19 am

June 11th, 2003, 12:38 am #7

This is true. I have seen AI systems (not their main system) that have every planet either settled or partially settled (Y/R worlds) by turn 40 or so when I stumble across them while scouting. This is on hard level BTW.

Nothing quite like seeing a 7-8 planet system teeming with AI colonies to go "oh crap, maybe I need to rethink that invasion." Of course the question is how well can the AI handle settling all those red/yellow sub optimal gravity worlds, and I haven't played enough to check on that either.
...I've never particularly cared for. The ability to not only colonize even the harshest of planets, but to completely turn them around into thriving utopias. I don't know how it is in MoO3, but I know that it was (IMO) quite bad in the original. You could take a planet whose maximum population cap was ~55, and with but a few ecological "patches" turn it into a planet fit for ~155 or so. Aside from the fact that it's not feasible, AT ALL, it also (again, IMO) takes away from the strategic depth of "which planets do I colonize". That "depth" remains in the early game, but even then it doesn't matter. It still becomes a race to grab the MOST planets, rather than the best ones. After all, who cares if you have 100 planets, with 50% of them being crap, when with a little bit of research (being powered by the rest of your worlds, of good quality) you can transform them all into healthy, life-supporting planets? So long as you don't lose them to a quick grab by your opposition (and even this can be negated by posting ships around the colony), the planet can sit there and do nothing. And even the slow growth factor can be completely negated by simply sending transports out to the colony to populize it. What's 50 million people from two planets filled with 150 million each? I'm sure they'll REALLY miss those 25m each, especially since they'll be replaced in 5 turns anyway. :P

Sorry for the OT-ness, but I felt like ranting on that small issue. Feel free to nag away at me for taking away from the topic at hand.

Roland The Gunslinger
The Dark Tower Mod
http://www.diablosc.com/hosted_files/dark_tower/
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Zed
Zed

June 11th, 2003, 2:20 am #8

You can colonize really red worlds in MOO3 and, with enough tech, terraform the crap out of them. But you'll need several terraforming techs to do so, which means you won't be able to make anything worthwhile out of them at least until halfway through the tree (more if you are missing some techs in your tree.) Moreover, terraforming costs not only money to perform in the 1st place, but also ongoing maintenance. Trying to do that before the planet can support it can blow the planetary economy out of the water.

Even before you get to that point, though, there are other considerations. You need to be able to feed whatever pop you have on red planets, and you can't grow food there. So, you either need enough agriculture tech that food isn't an issue, or to get really lucky finding lots of arable planets, or else be Silicoids and not care about bioharvest. Moreover, shipping pop over to red planets is something that can be done, but slowly; you can't directly control population migration in MOO3, but can only influence it, and people don't generally like to move in large numbers to really inhabitable planets. Even if they did, natural pop limits are severely constrained on red planets.

Colonizing a red planet is still possible, and will get you a small planet that can make a minor contribution to the empire if it doesn't get wrecked by overdevelopment before enough terraforming tech comes in, but it takes a considerable amount of time and investment to turn it into a significant colony.
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Ozymandous
Ozymandous

June 19th, 2003, 12:58 am #9

At least 4 of the planets I conquered had all the DEA built but 1 or 2 which may have been destroyed in the battle. Even the home world had 0 defense bases and only the 3 starting system ships. To tell you the truth, I was rather surprized. I send a squadron of 1 carrier and 2 recons to probe the homeworld and gauge how many ships I would need. As it turned out, I only needed another squadron to take care of his homeworld and a couple more squadrons to handle his reserve of starships.

On the plus side, by turn 85 my trilarian neighbor, who was now second on the powergraph, finally realized his colony ships were not swalloded by a black hole so he sent a single SR ship to break my blockade. His single ship destroyed a couple of squadrons of carrier ships as if they were scout ships. It turns out that even thought I have twice as many planets as he does, his average tech level is twice as high as mine. It looks like I will need all that extra production to build enough ships to contain the savant fish.
It's still easy to take planets from your neighbor, but the same could be said for Civ3 if you had everyone crammed in like sardines on a small map. You may take 2-3 planets, even a homeworld, but by the time you stunt your growth building the military needed the other races will have produced colony ships to have more planets, tech and resources (ships to fight back with).

There's still a trade off of some sort or another. You may capture another race that allows you access to different environments, but the AI settles pretty much all the worlds they find now, including Magnates so this balances out, IMHO. In my most recent game, where I verified that it is still easy to capture planets in the first 50 turns, the Silicoids were leading in planets for all races I had contacted because they settled a Magnate apparently early on (first 20 turns), and were spreading like crazy.
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Zed
Zed

June 19th, 2003, 2:58 am #10

...is whether early conquest, when opportunity presents, is still hands and feet better than early peaceful expansion, assuming you're not forced into it or nearly so by a boxed-in start. I have not checked out diplomacy recently so I'm not certain whether that might offer a reasonable alternative cure for a boxed-in start.

I've been laying off MOO3 a bit recently. I tend to play one game for a while then switch to another; MOO3 is in the off-season right now, so I'm not expecting to test this out myself anytime soon. If anyone wants to summarize their experiences comparing peaceful expansion to early warmongering, that would be useful to know.

I expect to pop up again for the next Imperium or SG, assuming I don't come back to MOO3 on my own before then.
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