Epic Two - Eastern Gem Traders - Reports and Discussion

Epic Two - Eastern Gem Traders - Reports and Discussion

Sirian
Sirian

July 1st, 2002, 3:17 am #1

Epic Two closes today, Monday, July 1. You have until the end of July 2 to post your reports. Let the discussions begin!

- Sirian
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Sirian
Sirian

July 1st, 2002, 3:24 am #2

I've hosted my Epic Two report at the Great Library. Click Here to visit and read the report. Questions and comments welcome. I'm looking forward to feedback about the scoring, as well as seeing how everyone did.

- Sirian
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Joined: August 29th, 2001, 4:26 am

July 1st, 2002, 3:38 am #3

Epic Two closes today, Monday, July 1. You have until the end of July 2 to post your reports. Let the discussions begin!

- Sirian
EPIC 2 report.

Game end: Retired 1110 AD.

Reason: Stupid cultural flip of a size one city, closer to my capital than that of my opponent, that cost me a whole military campaign and thousands of shields. A single roll of the dice which cost me
a) six war elephants
b) my only foothold on the Japanese continent
c) a divided force – which would have meant at least two more war elephants destroyed
d) several hours work



I really get annoyed when games have bugs. But I can live with them. I can even work around them. But I cannot stand flawed rules. Cultural flipping in this game occurs far too easily. The formula that is used in calculations is just to poor - and the consequences too high - for me to be able to appreciate this aspect of the game. A simple correction to the formula used would make this far more realistic. A simple line that says “if (military units in city/2 > city size) then do not flip” or something along those lines would enhance the game by an incredible amount.

A size one city has a population of 10 000 (this can be verified by starting a new game, founding the city and then checking the demographics). Of those half are going to be too old/young to fight. Half are women (and I am not being sexist, but in the middle ages, women did not fight very often). So that leaves us with at most 2500 peasant revolters. 2500 peasants revolt and destroy six legions of veteran war elephants?? I don’t think so. Even if you said that one unit was the equivalent of a hundred men, I would hardly think that a city garrisoned by six hundred battle hardened veteran war elephant riders would lose to 2500 peasants (who are probably using pitchforks and clubs). And even then, why would 2500 peasants (who are more concerned with where their next meal is going to come from) revolt against trained, battle hardened war elephant riders. Especially when half of their population is actually entertainers (as it was in this case).

NEVER have I seen such a stupid revolt. Well, except maybe the city that revolted TO the no-culture RBD succession game. I did not bother scoring for this game as I was so shocked, pained and generally wronged by this one event. I considered reloading, but I felt so disgusted by the revolt that I decided against it.

I'm not having a good run so far with the Epics

EDIT: except epic 3
Last edited by smegged on July 1st, 2002, 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sirian
Sirian

July 1st, 2002, 4:02 am #4

Seeing red on your map is so strange, and in places where I owned the land in my game. My Babylon bit the bullet after aggression vs the Zulus.

I'm sorry your game ended with a bad roll.

But you know... I see 13 shields left to go on that spearman. You had possession of that city for seven rounds? That's 1 to get a single shield and pacify the resistance, then 5 turns of temple at 2 culture per turn. That's only six turns to have cultural control of 21 tiles. On turn 7 you should have had the border pressure already gone and only be staring down the one foreign national inside. MIGHT have still flipped, but cut the odds to 1/3rd.

Sometimes you have to make your own luck.

I'm glad you're enjoying Epic Three.

Please go through and add up your points. Even with a loss, you can still score. Shouldn't take you more than a few minutes. That OK?


- Sirian
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Sullla
Sullla

July 1st, 2002, 4:20 am #5

Epic Two closes today, Monday, July 1. You have until the end of July 2 to post your reports. Let the discussions begin!

- Sirian
I restored my game, so those of you who didn't sneak a read at it ahead of time can do so.

http://www.geocities.com/lcsullla/RBCiv2_index

Since at the moment the site is down from excess data transfer *rolleyes*, and since T-Hawk has wisely suggested that I provide an executive summary of the game for those who don't have a 1/2 hour to read the whole thing, I'll do so here.

Moved onto the coast to start the game. Build two warriors to start and then a granary, which I think was the key to a successful game in this low-food start. Bought workers off of Russia in 3200BC for Alphabet tech, which allowed me to get over 2/3 of the starting continent. After grabbing most of the available land, I build the Lighthouse and found all of the other civs in the game. The Zulus declared war out of nowhere on me around 200BC, setting off a worldwide series of alliances and wars. I had to break an alliance with Japan to save a city and the leader inside it, so all the civs hated me forever after that. Fought Russia between 300 - 900AD and kicked them off the island; would have taken them out much sooner except for a Japanese warrior blocking the chokepoint on the island. (What was he doing there? Grrr...) After a peaceful interlude, Japan declared war out of nowhere in 1420AD and razed a colony of mine to the ground. In retribution, I invaded their island and razed every single one of their cities to the ground (peace made in 1700AD). After that, I build libraries and launched the spaceship in 1856AD. The full story is much more interesting, with lots of pictures and stuff, so you should probably read that when you get time.

Final score was 101 scenario points.
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Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

July 1st, 2002, 4:32 am #6

Epic Two closes today, Monday, July 1. You have until the end of July 2 to post your reports. Let the discussions begin!

- Sirian
My game can be found here.

http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epictwo

Only 88 scenario points. No fastest launch or highest score - Sirian did better on both.

Edit: I rewrote the missing page (still had the text file though not the HTML version) and it's there now.

(Is there a way I can get rid of that big stack of edit notices below?)
Last edited by T-hawk on July 1st, 2002, 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: August 29th, 2001, 4:26 am

July 1st, 2002, 4:44 am #7

Seeing red on your map is so strange, and in places where I owned the land in my game. My Babylon bit the bullet after aggression vs the Zulus.

I'm sorry your game ended with a bad roll.

But you know... I see 13 shields left to go on that spearman. You had possession of that city for seven rounds? That's 1 to get a single shield and pacify the resistance, then 5 turns of temple at 2 culture per turn. That's only six turns to have cultural control of 21 tiles. On turn 7 you should have had the border pressure already gone and only be staring down the one foreign national inside. MIGHT have still flipped, but cut the odds to 1/3rd.

Sometimes you have to make your own luck.

I'm glad you're enjoying Epic Three.

Please go through and add up your points. Even with a loss, you can still score. Shouldn't take you more than a few minutes. That OK?


- Sirian
yes, you are right. I should have rushed a temple. I did rush walls in the city. But I THOUGHT that having such a large garrison would prevent flipping. I am NOT a fan of roll-of-the-dice gameplay. For all of the things I love about Civ 3, there is a lot I hate. Many of them relating to combat (roll-of-dice), cultural flipping (roll-of-dice) and leader generation (roll-of-dice). I would PREFER leaders to be generated every 16th (or whatever the odds are) elite attack, rather than the system we have now. I would prefer cultural flipping to be MUCH harder. Yes, if your civs capital gets taken and it is only garrisoned with one defender it is likely that it will revolt back to you (or whoever took it). But in this case it was not a good thing.
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Sirian
Sirian

July 1st, 2002, 6:33 am #8

My game can be found here.

http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epictwo

Only 88 scenario points. No fastest launch or highest score - Sirian did better on both.

Edit: I rewrote the missing page (still had the text file though not the HTML version) and it's there now.

(Is there a way I can get rid of that big stack of edit notices below?)
Am I going to end up the only player whose Babylon got wiped out? That certainly helped me, as two of my size 30 cities were on that island just SE of Babylon city, and if they had sailed over there, I wouldn't have scored those, and Sulla might have beaten me.

The early war with Russia is fascinating, as was your choice to surrender the fertile western lands on the mainland. I really think my grabbing that, and then flipping the forward Russian city as a result, was my best move. Well, that and pulling the granary out after just one warrior. The Iron Works MAY NOT have ended up there for anybody, as that was weak, awkward land. It will be interesting to see the dotmap if anybody did turn out to land it. I think Jaipur also helped me out a lot, pulling two good coastal cities out of lands where you had one inland city.

Congrats on the wonders and the wars. Your game sounded fun! Mine was a typical expansion game, as I claimed large chunks of three major islands to the east with my own settlers. Smegged tried war with Japan as well, and that backfired for him. My Persia went to war with China and initially took three cities, then ran out of gas and was conquered off its homeland rather quickly. With Babylon out, Zulu capital jacked, Persia crippled and Russia hemmed in, research in my game was slow slow slow. Yet it appears I got to modern age before you did? Didn't beat you to the launch by much, though, and you were ahead of me on tech by the time I did launch, it appears, or about at the same place, not sure. Your Persia held out, and no civs were wiped out in your game? I had three with toe tags in mine, yet I played it honorably!

Looking forward to more results tomorrow. I have no idea how many played, but it appears to be less than the number from the first epic.


- Sirian
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Joined: August 29th, 2001, 4:26 am

July 1st, 2002, 7:12 am #9

yes, you are right. I should have rushed a temple. I did rush walls in the city. But I THOUGHT that having such a large garrison would prevent flipping. I am NOT a fan of roll-of-the-dice gameplay. For all of the things I love about Civ 3, there is a lot I hate. Many of them relating to combat (roll-of-dice), cultural flipping (roll-of-dice) and leader generation (roll-of-dice). I would PREFER leaders to be generated every 16th (or whatever the odds are) elite attack, rather than the system we have now. I would prefer cultural flipping to be MUCH harder. Yes, if your civs capital gets taken and it is only garrisoned with one defender it is likely that it will revolt back to you (or whoever took it). But in this case it was not a good thing.
13 points!!

10 for all the gems
2 for first contact with Russia
1 for a lone whale in range of Bungalore

I also had a look at the lands of the Zulu and Babylonians. They were at war in 1050 AD, but in the year 450 AD they were at peace. I wonder if it is because you decided to settle Big Island straight away. In my game, Babylon had enough room to expand (onto Big Island) and that is probably why they never went to early war.
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Sirian
Sirian

July 1st, 2002, 7:36 am #10

No wonder points? No landmass points? OK.

As for my Babs, they were dead and wiped out before mapmaking was discovered. I must have just gotten some really odd luck in that regard. Both civs survived in the other three games reported so far, and nothing I did had any overt impact on either except for my sequence of events pulling a very strange result out of the random seeds.

With Zulus and Babs warring, I would still have gotten to Big Island quickly, though. I beelined right to there and had one spot ~500BC. I got another spot shortly after, then that was it. I got two half cities from rushing settlers from those first cities, and one of those turned into a size 30. Amazing. I landed a third settler down on the south island. So... from three settlers, I later rushed three more settlers, flipped two cities earlyish, then late game had the base in place to take over both islands. I missed scoring the south island by one Zulu city left, which I could do nothing about within my honorable limitation.

13 points? You would have had much more if you had played it out. You got fed up and stopped the game after that bad break. I hope in Epic Four you will play through whatever fortune hands you. Sometimes it's through recovering from or suffering under such bad breaks that you learn the most powerful lessons about how to play the game effectively, as well some of the most satisfying redemptions. Or so it has been for me.


- Sirian
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