Epic Twenty-six: Mystery Meatloaf - Reports and Discussion

Epic Twenty-six: Mystery Meatloaf - Reports and Discussion

Griselda
Griselda

April 14th, 2003, 9:10 am #1

Epic Twenty-six closes today, so post your reports here.

-Griselda
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Sirp
Sirp

April 14th, 2003, 11:04 am #2

My report to Epic fou-uh, twenty-six can be found at http://www.kalikokottage.com/sirp/epic26/intro.html
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Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

April 14th, 2003, 11:45 am #3

Epic Twenty-six closes today, so post your reports here.

-Griselda
, monster of a report.

http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epic26/

Last edited by T-hawk on April 14th, 2003, 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

April 14th, 2003, 12:09 pm #4

My report to Epic fou-uh, twenty-six can be found at http://www.kalikokottage.com/sirp/epic26/intro.html
There wasn't enough information available at the start to find the floodplains area to the north. It wasn't worth it to lose two worker-turns of labor to investigate the mountain, and it also would've taken three turns to move far enough to be on a river up there. And in those three turns a barbarian horseman probably would have killed your settler.

I got hit even harder by barbarians than you did - five cities in 1225 BC? I had two! You never had to resort to whipping military in Rome; I did several times.

We had eerily similar game paths - pull a miracle brokerage to get back in the game; kick out the infringing Zulu cities early, but in Republic to get the golden age then; Zulu smacking down Arabia (somewhat later in mine); Scandinavia going nuts too; the small Ottomans becoming the tech leader! And our Forbidden Palace locations differed by one tile.

You were cancelling your Palace UN prebuild to scratch? There's usually something at least fairly expensive that you can switch to to bleed off some shields without going to zero, then go back to the Palace. I pulled exactly that move between the Palace and a Factory to get ToE in this game. I often keep Battlefield Medicine unbuilt for just that purpose in the late game (though I built it here for the combat benefit.)

Anyways, well played!
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Sirp
Sirp

April 14th, 2003, 12:25 pm #5

If the worker had been moved onto the mountains, you would see the floodplains to the north-west, and then be able to settle Rome one space south-west of the starting location, to have three floodplains in range after border expansion.

It would be a dangerous business actually getting those floodplains irrigated though, but I think it'd still be well worth it.

I've never thought of switching to something else to bleed off some shields. I'll have to keep that in mind

-Sirp.
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Sirp
Sirp

April 14th, 2003, 12:31 pm #6

, monster of a report.

http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epic26/
That was a whopper of a game. And I thought I was having a hard time with the barbarians at the start!

I think that getting a settler out rather than building a granary was one of the things that gave me an advantage: as soon as you get some cities out, it shelters your capital from barbarians in that direction. It doesn't matter that much if cities other than your capital get pillaged early on.

Rome never had problems with barbarians from the south, because of the placement of Veii, and that's where you seem to have had most of your barb problems.

I don't know if I could have come back from the position you were left in though. You held your nerve and came back from a dismal situation to win comprehensively. You even managed to get Smith's as well as ToE. It was very frustrating missing out on that.

Congratulations on a well-played game

-Sirp.
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Charis
Charis

April 14th, 2003, 1:56 pm #7

, monster of a report.

http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epic26/
A really nice job

I had thought but had never it confirmed that barbarians don't spawn from areas that no civ had ever seen. Thinking about that with several past games, that makes a lot of sense now. I didn't know getting a map from a goody hut could be so harmful to your health!

Once again, a tech trading tour du force.

The only think I thought on in the report was how you assumed Pompeii was definitely going to fall to the Knights. But... Pike was vet, the brown clowns were just regs, and you had size 12 city bonus. The odds for round one were 25% knights win, 25% they retreat, and 50% (!) chance that the pike kills them both. So not quite in the 'miracle' category. Then again, as you know, the AI never get to run my calculater, they come up with their own results! :P

Charis
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Sirian
Sirian

April 14th, 2003, 8:13 pm #8

, monster of a report.

http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epic26/
You might be a little burnt out on warring after 26 and then 27, but it was a worthy game nonetheless and I hope you have no regrets.

Very nice recovery from a dark beginning. Well done.


- Sirian
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Griselda
Griselda

April 14th, 2003, 11:03 pm #9

Epic Twenty-six closes today, so post your reports here.

-Griselda
I opened up my save file- Rome! Well, at least it's a Civ I'm familiar with.

It seems pretty clear that I don't want to found Rome on the flood plain, and I can't move my worker either if I want to improve that tile first. So, I move the settler one south onto the forest. That will move me slightly away from the desert, plus I'll keep the fresh water and get use of the flood plain. So, in 3950 BC, Rome was founded, and I started pottery at 100%. I ordered up a warrior, and then another.

Meanwhile, my worker improved the flood plains and then the grassland. I let my borders pop the (empty) hut, and the moved to work the bonus grass underneath. When the first warrior was done, I sent him south to scout, and turned up lux. I popped a second deserted hut. In 3300 BC, I popped some angry warriors out of the south coast hut, and my warrior was killed.

Shoot. My second warrior was ready, but now I know there's barbarians close, so I kept my second warrior for MP and to guard my worker, and started on a third. In 3150, my worker moves to the bonus grass and sees a bar on the north mountain. I choose to cover the worker instead of Rome. Meanwhile, science has to go to 50% to pay for lux. After a third warrior, I start a granary prebuild.

Pottery comes in 3050 BC, and I started writing at 10%

Machiavelli listed the largest Civs in the world, and I noticed that there sure were a lot of militaristic ones. Good grief!

It took me quite some time to get the hang of these Deity bars- this is my first Deity game ever and the barbarians are tough! I lost my second bar in 2950 BC, while still waiting on that granary. Also, Rome was taken from size 4 down to 2 by disease.

In 2390 BC, the granary came in, and I started another warrior. In 2350, bar horses pop out of nowhere by my worker/warrior. I can't do anything but be attacked, and I lost. The bars pillage the tile I had been working, and suddenly I expect them to pillage all my work. I had another warrior (must have just built one), and I made the silly choice to send it to the mountain where I thought I could pick off any pillaging bars. I'd hoped the ones that went to the city would take just gold. I also whipped a barracks. That was an especially bad combination, as you can imagine. I lost my progress on barracks, all my gold, and three population over 2-3 turns. In 1790 BC I once again had a warrior, and started barracks. I kept my only warrior home. The Zulu completed the Oracle in Zimbabwe.

In 1600 BC, Rome completes its barracks, and starts an archer. The Ottomans completed the Pyramids. In 1575 BC, I met Carthage. They had bronze, masonry, and the wheel, and all of our techs, plus SEVEN cities! I got writing in 1550 BC, and started literature. Carthage wouldn't even trade masonry or the wheel for writing- are they working on it? I trade it for bronze working plus some gold.

In 1475 BC, I completed an archer, and started a spear. Carthage finished the Colossus.

My one stroke of ancient era good luck came in the form of a free settler from a hut up to the north on that flood plains site. I founded Veii there in 1400 BC.

Anyway, I finally got another settler out in 900 BC, when I founded Antium between the wheat and the game. I met the Zulus and the Arabians, and was able to get to literature first (of course, I hadn't been able to get anything resembling a prebuild together, so I brokered that a bit.

In 390 BC I was able to get a second settler out of Rome, and they headed for that choke point tile down south. Meanwhile, Carthage and the Zulu are allied vs. Arabia, and the Zulu are milling about suspiciously by Veii. I traded some gpt and cash for mysticism, and they went away. I also went into auto-cave mode with the other AI. The barbarians were enough to deal with.

In 290 BC, when IIRC I was still trying to get mathematics, the AI were already into the middle ages, and there was a massive barbarian uprising. Unfortunately, one of the huts that popped was one away from that settler pair I'd sent to the choke point, so they were toast. I did get another city founded in 150 BC, Cumae, just NW of Antium. So, here's the lay of the land in 10 BC. Ugh!



It didn't pick up then, either. I sent a settler out guarded by 2 vet spears, and 2 bar horses killed them in a single turn. In 290 AD, the Zulu destroyed the Arabs, which was a shame as I'd been hoping to broker techs to them. Oh well, better them than me, right?

I bought some techs and researched republic at minimum, and finally founded some cities with my last few scraps of land, but it was getting tight.



Here's the lay of the land in 1030 AD. Pisae's kind of crammed in up there, but I wanted the wheat, the cow, and the wines, so I figured I'd try it. It flipped to the Zulu in 1080 AD (and then switched hands a lot in the silly AI wars). I built my FP in Cumae in 1020 AD. You can also see that the Ottos and the Zulu were busy fighting each other in my territory. All those little towns on my borders changed hands quite a bit, to the point where I was too careless about AI wandering in my territory. I was starting to get some lux online and imported finally. Oh, and I'd had only a 2-turn anarchy for republic.

In 1190 AD the Zulu razed the Ottos' Adana, and I was able to swap Ravenna to a settler real quick and grab up the tile just SE of Adana for myself.

At this point, I felt like I was too hopelessly behind to start a war, so I was thinking that I might shoot for a diplo win. I realized that this wasn't making the best use of Rome's strengths, but I was already well past the era of Legionaries, and I figured I could count on the AI to drag each other into wars. It seemed like my only hope.

I also made perhaps a silly choice not to go for democracy even though I was looking for a diplo win. It was tough to come up with cash even to buy techs @ last, and the thought of trying to get printing press AND democracy seemed overwhelming. Plus, if I did get into a war (especially if I was losing and couldn't pay for peace), I didn't want to have to then worry about switching back out. So, I stayed with republic.

I bought 20 turns of saltpeter from the Zulu, and did as much upgrading as I could in only those 20 turns. Then, I hunkered down and tried to not attract any attention to myself. I entered the industrial age in 1520 AD, and in 1530 traded for steam power and was relieved to have coal! I was also able to think about maybe brokering techs to Japan, who was struggling. I put Cumae on a palace prebuild for a while, but I wasn't sure I'd have time to get ToE. Sure enough, Carthage completed in in 1535.

In the 1500's, the Zulu landed some units near Hispalis, and I hadn't paid them any mind, mostly because the Ottos kept killing them before the moved more than two tiles. I'd thought they were headed for that city E of Hispalis, although I did sort of wonder why they had landed on the Cumae/Hispalis coast. Anyway, they sneak attacked me and took Hispalis in 1600 AD, but then after that I didn't see another Zulu unit (maybe the others were killing them off before they got close to me). Besides losing Hispalis, losing the two lux I'd been importing from them hurt quite a bit. Plus, then they signed Japan up for an embargo against me. Still, they would take peace in 1645 for 160 gold, well worth it at that point, since I had no offensive capability.

Carthage had been in the wars for ages too, but they were always good trading partners for me and I'd also started to ignore their constant stream of units towards the Zulus. So, it was also a surprise when they declared war on me in 1690 AD with a sneak attack. But, they were a little bit too late. I'd just gotten replaceable parts and made my first infantry. On their first attack, they sent a cav at Neapolis, and it retreated to the mountain by Veii. Well, during the war with the Zulu, I'd made a couple of Legionaries that poked around looking for easy victory opportunities, and this was too perfect! One legionary took the railroad to Veii, killed the cav, and started my golden age! This was absolutely thrilling as I wasn't sure that I was going to get a GA at all.

The war was beautiful. I had remarkably good luck the first few turns, and spent my GA money upgrading absolutely everything to infantry. I still didn't have any offense (I never did bother to trade for horses or get chivalry or mil tradition), but I was able to keep just enough infantry and some artillery in my southern cities to encourage them to attack and kill themselves. I had been hoping to fish out a leader, but didn't have any luck with that. I paid them 180 gold for peace in 1730 AD, but my people vowed revenge.

Meanwhile, Japan had been destroyed by the Vikings, so there went another brokering possibility.

In 1764, the Ottomans started the UN, and my chances for victory were looking slim. They were finally put to rest in 1798, when they completed it and didn't hold a vote (because they were at war with almost everyone). It was almost a relief, though, since now I could relax a bit and pester the AI. There was still a very slim chance that they'd really mess up their space race, but I wasn't counting on it.

I bought oil in 1826, and almost all cities went into tank building mode. I also bought flight, and build a few bombers, plus I tried to get some artillery made as well.

One of the AI razed Pisae (can't even remember whose it was by then), and all of the leftover area was in my cultural control, so I founded Pisae's Revenge in 1842, 1 tile east of the former Pisae. I bet the people of Pisae wished they hadn't flipped to the Zulu! I could have given them a life of peace, if not prosperity.

In 1866, my oil deal expired, and I had a huge stack o' tanks (along with a few infantry, artillery, and some bombers in my southernmost city. My people wanted revenge on Carthage, and, republic or no, I would have it! (a gamble since I didn't have Monarchy for sure, but what did I have to lose?)

I captured their choke point city plus the one just to the south, where I was happy to see aluminum. I founded Aluminium a little SE of there to cement the deal, plus I captured Ibanago east of Pisae's Revenge. I had been hoping for a leader to rush Apollo or something else, but it didn't happen. They offered me some chump change for peace after 10 turns, just when war weariness was starting to hurt, so I took it. Meanwhile, I was trying to regroup and buy Space Flight.

I was once again in brokering range, and was finally growing a bit in strength, but time ran out on me. The Ottos launched in 1902. I played for 18 hours and 33 minutes (remember, not many wars), for a final score of 1022.

It may not have been a win, but I certainly had fun, especially, surprisingly enough, in the late game. If only I'd handled the barbarians better in the ancient era, or maybe if I'd waged a horse campaign, I think I could have won it.

-Griselda
Last edited by Grizelda on April 14th, 2003, 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sirp
Sirp

April 15th, 2003, 3:46 am #10

And I thought I had a tough time with barbarians early on! Considering your early set backs, I think you did well to survive until the end.

There's a simple rule with goody huts on Deity: if you're non-expansionist, don't open them! If you do, you will get barbarians popping out and they will kill you. I didn't pop open any goodie huts in my game - except by settling a city right next to them (which guarantees no barbs).

I know you got a free settler from a goody hut, but you also got barbs, and on Deity, the chances of getting barbs vs good things from a hut is skewed horribly toward barbs.

I also tend to think that trying to build an early barracks in Rome was a mistake. You only wanted a couple of archers, so it's more economical to just get regulars. You're militaristic, so they have a high chance of advancing to veteran just by winning combat against barbs. (1/4 chance to go regular -> veteran and 1/8 change to go veteran -> elite for a militaristic civ fighting barbs, iirc).

When you're up against barbarian hordes like these, the most important thing to do is get cities out. It doesn't matter if your new cities get pillaged, just as long as they distract attention from your capital. Getting a granary early on is usually a good move, but in this game I think it actually advantaged me to have my early granary attempt in Rome disrupted by the thread of a barb, and being forced to build a settler instead.

Condolences on your loss, but congratulations for playing all the way through, and trying to win until the very end.

-Sirp.
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