Epic ThirtyNine - Division of Labor - Reports and Discussion

Epic ThirtyNine - Division of Labor - Reports and Discussion

Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

March 29th, 2004, 5:48 am #1

This thread is for reports and discussion on Epic 39. Have at it. You have until the end of Monday to finish playing the game, and until the end of Tuesday to post at least a summary of your result to be included in the official scoring.

There were quite a number of posts in the info thread indicating rushing to finish the game by the deadline. Was this a case of 1) the micromanagement really did make the game take that long, 2) an interesting enough variant to grab people that'd be on the fence about playing and fitting it in, or 3) the old college syndrome of waiting till the last minute no matter when it's due? Probably some of each, I'd wager.


March 29th, 2004, 5:56 am #2

There were quite a number of posts in the info thread indicating rushing to finish the game by the deadline. Was this a case of 1) the micromanagement really did make the game take that long, 2) an interesting enough variant to grab people that'd be on the fence about playing and fitting it in, or 3) the old college syndrome of waiting till the last minute no matter when it's due? Probably some of each, I'd wager.

Not for me. 1) I finished some time ago. 2) I was never on the fence. 3) I only wait for the last minute for the reports, not the actual playing.

My report will be Found Here.

- Sirian

Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

March 29th, 2004, 6:03 am #3

This thread is for reports and discussion on Epic 39. Have at it. You have until the end of Monday to finish playing the game, and until the end of Tuesday to post at least a summary of your result to be included in the official scoring.

There were quite a number of posts in the info thread indicating rushing to finish the game by the deadline. Was this a case of 1) the micromanagement really did make the game take that long, 2) an interesting enough variant to grab people that'd be on the fence about playing and fitting it in, or 3) the old college syndrome of waiting till the last minute no matter when it's due? Probably some of each, I'd wager.
(Game sponsor here, posting the link for Jabah who is away this week)

Jabah's report can be found here:


Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

March 29th, 2004, 6:05 am #4

This thread is for reports and discussion on Epic 39. Have at it. You have until the end of Monday to finish playing the game, and until the end of Tuesday to post at least a summary of your result to be included in the official scoring.

There were quite a number of posts in the info thread indicating rushing to finish the game by the deadline. Was this a case of 1) the micromanagement really did make the game take that long, 2) an interesting enough variant to grab people that'd be on the fence about playing and fitting it in, or 3) the old college syndrome of waiting till the last minute no matter when it's due? Probably some of each, I'd wager.
(Game sponsor here again )

Dwip's report can be found here:


Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

March 29th, 2004, 6:38 am #5

Close McFinish, too bad it didn't go your way. I was surprised by how long the AIs took to get the spaceship parts built, though. Maybe England went into Mobilization for a while.

Looks like you lost the land-grab pretty badly, and never really recovered. In the 50 BC picture, your cities are all at sizes 6-8; why didn't they build more settlers? Were you playing a 5CC on purpose? It wasn't because of your city placement; your 5 cities exactly matched the location of my first 5 in my shadow game, except that your McLugdunum missed actually being on the river.

It actually hadn't occurred to me just how hard it'd be to catch up from a lousy land-grab. You wouldn't have the economy to push your way back in without Republic, and you wouldn't have the military to smack your way back in without mines. Wonder how many other games might've ended up in such a hole.

Building the Colossus may have been the critical choice that set you back. Building settlers instead would've gotten you just as much commerce in the short term with two additional size-6 cities, and far more long-term. This is exactly the situation that I was lecturing the RBC11 SG team about regarding the Colossus.

Communism was, well, inadvisable. In an empire that small, you'd have less corruption just staying in Monarchy, especially with policemen. I guess you were trying to use the veteran spies, but looks like the elite spies of rival Fascist governments tripped that up.

At least it was an entertaining writeup. Too bad it wasn't Super Sized.

Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

March 29th, 2004, 6:41 am #6

There were quite a number of posts in the info thread indicating rushing to finish the game by the deadline. Was this a case of 1) the micromanagement really did make the game take that long, 2) an interesting enough variant to grab people that'd be on the fence about playing and fitting it in, or 3) the old college syndrome of waiting till the last minute no matter when it's due? Probably some of each, I'd wager.

Not for me. 1) I finished some time ago. 2) I was never on the fence. 3) I only wait for the last minute for the reports, not the actual playing.

My report will be Found Here.

- Sirian
Trebuchets are neat, but they are overpowered. I'm not sure if you're aware, but in Conquests they changed bombardment units to always attack units in cities. Cats and trebs and cannons don't go for population or improvements until all the defenders are redlined.

That means you need one-third as many bombardment units to redline a city. It used to take about 30 catapult attacks to redline a city with a few pikemen, which usually wasn't practical, but now that takes about 8 trebs, which is brutally effective. 8 trebs and three knights (or worse, one army) can take no losses in obliterating a civ. And you get to keep the cities at full size with improvements instead of burnt shells.

Fascism's pop loss is 1 per city at size 1-6, 2 at size 7-12, 3 at size 13+. As I understand it, it's a one-time penalty and you can just grow it right back.

The notion is that it historically represents "ethnic cleansing" policies often imposed by fascist governments. You should know by now that effects like that are done on a basis of what seems cool, not on how the AIs will handle it. Think volcanoes. Same with the artillery bombardment change - that was directly in response to people complaining that they wanted bigger bang from their artillery. Never mind how horribly it hurts the AIs who can't use it.

I've always built fighters, too, and like you, I don't yet know exactly how to balance between flaks and fighters, either. I've just been putting one of each in each city for the most part. I also turn off animate battles by the time I get into any modern wars, so it's kinda hard to judge the effectiveness of either. One additional detail is that flaks do work for ground defense, MP, and suppressing resistance.

1814 AD might turn out to be not a great finish date for conquest; 'twas certainly possible to do that with cavalry, especially with a few armies. Sounds like you did have fun with the game and the Conquests features including the specialists, at least.
Last edited by T-hawk on March 29th, 2004, 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.


March 29th, 2004, 7:26 am #7

This thread is for reports and discussion on Epic 39. Have at it. You have until the end of Monday to finish playing the game, and until the end of Tuesday to post at least a summary of your result to be included in the official scoring.

There were quite a number of posts in the info thread indicating rushing to finish the game by the deadline. Was this a case of 1) the micromanagement really did make the game take that long, 2) an interesting enough variant to grab people that'd be on the fence about playing and fitting it in, or 3) the old college syndrome of waiting till the last minute no matter when it's due? Probably some of each, I'd wager.
Since I don't see any reason not to found on the starting tile, I go ahead and start there. The first thing I notice is that, without mines, the despotism penalty really hurts! There are a lot of tiles that won't benefit from anything but roads in despotism. With that in mind, I send my worker out to the plains by the fish to irrigate. I'll irrigate there first, and then see about hooking up those wines. I settle Entremont, and start a warrior. I start mysticism, thinking I may be able to trade it.

I send the first warrior west, and the second one north. I don't get the wines connected until 3400 BC, when I can turn the lux off and science up.

Curiosity always gets the better of me. In 3400 BC, I pop the hut to the west, and get barbs. I still don't understand Conquests barbs, though. They fortify, so I do, too, thinking I might have a better chance of surviving them if I'm fortified. They still don't attack, so I attack the one that has a tile between it and the others. That way, I'll have a turn to heal. I win, and fortify.

In 3200 BC, I pop the hut to the north, and get barbs there too. Between turns, both my northern and my western warriors are killed by the barbs. That leaves me with my one MP warrior, and one worker for units, and not very much land explored. I'd started a granary, though, and want to finish it. Mysticism comes in at 3050 BC, but of course I haven't explored, so I haven't met anyone to trade it with. I start alphabet at max.

In 2710 BC, my granary is complete. At least the barbs that killed my warrior didn't swarm me! I don't know where they are, though. I build a warrior, then a settler, and send out a settler pair. Scouting will just have to wait, but I don't feel safe sending unescorted settlers out into the blackness either.

Here's my civ in 2230, when my second city, Alesia, was founded. You can see how very worldly I am! I also haven't done much in the way of improvements outside of roads. I spend a lot of turns mining the hill for shields, but since I'm working on settlers and not growing, I don't get good use out of it for a while. I do better with the irrigated plains (and deserts, of course) and the bonus grasslands.

Alphabet comes in, and I start writing. I send my second settler SW, to found in a pretty close spot that can hopefully make use of the mountains and hills there. I don't think it will make too much difference if I'm building close to my capitol, but that limits my available food tiles, which limits my ability to use the nice shield tiles there.

I still don't do any scouting, but in 2070 Egypt finally marches a warrior down my way. They have all the techs that we do, and we lack bronze working, masonry, the wheel, and warrior code.

I build my curragh, and start paddling around to the north (if I'd picked south, of course, I'd have made more contacts, but I wouldn't learn about that for years since I stick with the one curragh). Carthage strolls by. They have the same techs as Egypt does. Soon they also have writing. My writing comes in soon afterwards, and I figure I'll try for map making. With the current tech model, it wouldn't necessarily be cheaper than buying anyway, and I have at least a chance of a two-fer.

In about 1550 BC, I have built a barracks in my capitol, and have the spices by Alesia online.

With the curragh, I notice that the AI tend to treat it like a scout. They'll ask me to move it once, but never complain again if I agree and then move out on the other side, not the side I came in. So, I just paddle around the continent. I find the island to the NE, and paddle around that. It's not another continent, of course.

Carthage beats me to map making by quite a bit, but I keep going on my research, and buy bronze working and eventually iron working. I've founded some more cities, but will need to stretch for that northern iron! In 1000 BC, Egypt founds by the iron! Our settler was on the way, but will be too short. I decide to fight for it, since the iron would be in their second ring, and I can get it into a first ring.

You can see how that worked out here. It's close to Byblos and to two of my cities, but it will have to do. What are the Celts without iron?

In 570 BC I double-whip two granaries. We're not so food-rich that I can do without them, but waiting for them to build out without mines is like watching grass grow. So, I think it's worth it.

The English had built the Colossus a while ago, and in 550 BC the Portugese complete the Pyramids. The Oracle isn't even completed for another few turns. It seems like nobody has great production in this game, which I appreciate!

The no-discount tech race is scary now in the ancient age. I buy warrior code, and start Monarchy. I don't have a lot of cash, though, and techs are hard to afford.

I can't see any advantage to waiting for a FP in this version, and location is unimportant. So, I started to build it in Alesia.

In 510 BC, I finally get my iron hooked up, but I'm not really ready to build Gallics yet. Luckily, they should be useful for a little while yet.

In 450 BC, I see a red border. That's when I realize how close I'd been to meeting the other continent!

In 350 BC, I sail my one little curragh over and meet Rome, and England soon afterwards. They had both settled the island to my east. I also notice that Carthage is fighting Egypt (I hadn't been able to afford embassies yet).

In 270 BC, there's finally a tech brokering chance! Carthage and England have Monarchy, and we can buy it at a discount because we've been researching it. Then, I can sell it to Egypt for masonry, philosophy, the wheel, code of laws, and 55 gpt. Then, I can sell Monarchy to Rome too for math and horseback riding. That was nice!

We revolt, and draw a 2-turn anarchy? I've never seen it be longer than one turn with a religious civ. Is this new?

We enter Monarchy in 230 BC, and can finally really start to irrigate! My workers are sent back corewards. We can also pull a currency-construction two-fer pretty quickly.

We're not that behind all of a sudden- only Carthage has a middle age tech.

Our curragh (still my only naval vessel) has done all it can do, so it becomes a suicide curragh! It survives, and I start paddling around the other continent. I complete my FP, too. Things are looking up for the Celtics!

Egypt completes the Great Wall, which will make it slightly harder for me to crush them with my Gallics. I'd actually planned to be at war sooner, but there were other useful building things that took priority. I'm still getting techs at a nice rate, as I'm able to buy engineering and use it towards feudalism and literature. I don't have the production to get done with infra in my core and start building military, so I just keep building improvements.

Egypt had paid for an embassy with me, so I get the memo when they make peace with Carthage in 210 AD. In 230, I can afford my first embassy- with Carthage. Carthage is at 11 spt, and I note that they're not working any mined tiles, either. Soon, I can afford to make an embassy with England. They're using three mined tiles, but still only manage 9 spt and size 8. No wonder I haven't been left behind by these AI! An embassy in Rome (in 340 AD) reveals their capitol making 6 spt. They're still working on the great library. I wonder if they'll get there before education? They do have a gigantic garrison of ancient cavs. They could hurt somebody with them, but they seem to be leaving them all at home. That seems unusual, for the Romans.

My marketplaces are coming online, and I'm also starting to build gallics finally.

In 350 AD, Portugal completes the Great Library, putting Rome out of its misery. Just a little bit later, I can afford an embassy with Portugal, and notice that they have a musket due in 1. It's not every day you see a Great Library-musket production queue!

The Great Celtic Army has finally been assembled. Well, at least I won't have to worry about having my GA in despotism.

Here you can see the glorious Celtic empire on the eve of war. I didn't do all that well on my land grab, but that had some potential advantages. Both Egypt and Carthage had some lightly defended cities that were separated from their core and should be much easier for me to capture. Plus, the distance from their core (even if only a few cities) should give me some time to prepare for whatever they sent my way. In this shot, my three barracks cities are producing either pikes or gallics, and Camulodunum would be joining them shortly. I have seven Gallics poised to attack El-Amarna next turn, and a settler ready to resettle, although looking at the shot now I'm not sure exactly what was wrong with the current city location. I never did make a dotmap for this one, and my city placement certainly suffered as a result. I also wish I'd made a less dense settlement pattern in my core, to take full advantage of the late-game specialists, but what I was mostly thinking about was trying to have a city for every mine-able section of the map. Just about every forest, hill, or mountain got its own city. :P

The two gallics and the MDI by Byblos are mostly to cover the iron, because I didn't have the units to open two fronts but couldn't afford to lose the iron.

In 420 AD, we declared war on Egypt, and attacked! My first two attackers retreat and then lose, so it takes the third Gallic to trigger the GA (facing regular spears). I guess that's not too bad considering I was fighting the Great Wall civ. But, there were only three defenders, so El-Amarna was soon burned to the ground! In 440 AD, Lapurdum was settled in the area.

Meanwhile, I was wheeling and dealing with the other AI, getting theology, chivalry, gunpowder, and education. I decided to try researching banking. My memory from RBC1 was still vivid, as well as my struggles with other Conquests games, and I knew I couldn't count on the AI to stay tightly bunched forever. I hadn't had time to build libraries yet, but that was certainly on my mind.

In 450 AD, I attacked Hieraconpolis, which had at least one veteran spear. It took me an extra turn to raze that one, which I resettled with two cities. I also attacked and captured Byblos to the north. Hiera had some mind tiles, so I had to remember not to work them until I'd irrigated.

Well, the war was going much better than I expected, especially for gallics in the middle ages. In 520, I captured Pi-Ramesses, which was further than I'd expected to get with my first war.

This is where it really got interesting, though. Egypt had offered almost no resistance, but in 530, Carthage moved units into "sneak attack" position on Pi-Ramesses. I had been sending units to Egypt's little core, but Carthage was bigger and stronger than me, so I had to pull back. Carthage had three Numidians on the iron mountain by Pi-R, and a stack of 8 archers covered by a Numidian on the way. I had knights and pikes, but not very many. I had to make the most of what I had. I could get three knights and three gallics (one of them redlined) into Pi-R that turn, and it would have to do.

Actually, looking at the save, although my military was "weak" compared to them and I wasn't expecting the attack, I wasn't in such bad shape. Maybe it was just the size of their empire on the minimap that was scary. At that point, I had 9 pikes, 6 knights, 6 gallics, and 3 MDI. But, most could get to the front pretty quickly, and I had water on my other three sides.

I did buy chemistry from Carthage for 57 gpt. All I had ever wanted was to be friends with them, so I figured they owed me that much. I hadn't managed to research banking at all, but had bought it and traded for astronomy.

Anyway, Carthage did indeed declare war, and attacked me with its Numidians! That was fine with me, since that meant I wouldn't have to worry about fighting their 3-defense on the mountain, especially if they'd sent offensive units to the same tile.

In 540, Carthage also completed Sun Tzu's. I could tell we were not going to be friends any more. At least the wonders were spread out. England got Knights Templar, and the Romans got Leo's.

Egypt had finally managed to send some offensive units my way, and I couldn't take them and Carthage. So, I made peace with Egypt although they didn't really have anything I wanted.

It took a couple of turns before the attacking-numidians and the archers were scattered and not so scary. Although I stayed at war, I switched Entremont to a bank, so that I wouldn't get left behind.

Trade routes were open, now, and I could trade for some nice English dyes. It was kind of refreshing to still have MP and no WW, since I haven't used Monarchy much lately.

The wonders started getting less spread out. England completed Copernicus and Sistine. I was starting to realize that they'd be my true competition, and was thinking of ways to prevent them from taking off with the game. I already mentioned that I was trying to maintain infrastructure builds even while at war, and at least keeping the option of self-research open although I hadn't been able to accomplish much with it just yet. Also, I was thinking that it might be better to attack England sooner rather than later, because it's hard to catch a runaway civ on another continent. I kept this in mind in my trading, and tried to buy from Portugal as much as possible. As I mentioned before, I was trying to make sure I'd learned something from my experience in RBC1. I did try researching once again (not much to lose, I figured, even if I wasn't first), this time with economics.

But that was long term, and I still had a war at home. Carthage had some galleys out, and I was worried that they'd land units. Past the front, I was all cardboard cutouts, so I had to divert some knights and gallics and set up a quick zone defense.

By 610 I was ready to actually bring the war to Carthage. They had a couple of cities on my side of Egypt, but even those had muskets. I was able to raze Oea using knights. I wanted to resettle on the fresh water. I then headed for the Carthage-held Alexandria, which I had to raze also to make room for Oea's replacement. This was fine, as I could resettle Alexandria by the coast.

By 690 AD, I'd captured or razed all the Carthaginian cities on my side of Egypt, and Egypt (with her four cities) declared war on Carthage as well. The next turn, I got my first leader, and quickly made a knight army.

Oh, I'd also been the first to economics, hooray! I was able to get metallurgy and some gold for it. I bought the AI world maps, and saw- saltpeter! Close by! If I could get the saltpeter before Carthage had cavs, things would be much easier for me. I can move my knight army up and pillage right away, and then work on capturing their city. I was able to capture Leptis Minor, the salt city, in 770 AD.

So, what had started as a limited war to compensate for a mediocre land grab had already netted half the continent! I could have continued my pursuit of Carthage, but at that point Egypt was really in the way, and my peace treaty was up anyway. I declared war on Egypt in 810 AD, but, being in Monarchy, didn't have any reason to take peace with Carthage. I just didn't focus on them for the time being.

In 830, I captured Mempis, in 850 Heliopolis, and in 890 Giza, and Cleo was reduced to a OCC.

In 930 AD, I made it to the industrial age. Only England and Portugal were also industrial. Carthage had been keeping up, but they were out of gas.

Steam Power at 60% was 22 turns, but with the industrial-age AI so predictable, that still seemed like a good bet.

In 980 AD, I captured Thebes, and of course this happened:

In 980, England completed Smith's. You may have noticed that I hadn't even entered the wonder race yet. Without mines, and with a war to win, it didn't seem reasonable. It will be interesting to see what wonders other players manage to build.

I decide that I might as well capture Carthage. I wasn't sure what good those cities up there would do, but I did like the idea of removing the threat of a land invasion, and the freedom that would give me to focus on the other continent.

But, since Carthage was not a real threat at that point, I needed to stay competitive. I put most of my core onto infrastructure- libraries (finally), universities, and banks.

In 1030, England got Magellan's. In 1100 AD, I am the first to steam power. Both Portugal and England had nationalism, so I took the tech from Portugal, and gold from England (full market value, I'm pretty sure). I started medicine.

I needed to decide whether I wanted a new government. Both communism and fascism would soon be available. The fascist unit support was temping, but I suspected that the corruption would more than eat up those gains. The draw of the Secret Police Headquarters, on the other hand, was very tempting. With almost an entire continent to my name, I could use a higher OCN! I'd kept at least one eye on the RBC10 and 11 SG's, and was especially reassured by Aggie's comparison shots on the last page of RBC11. I was expecting to have to compete with AI democracies, and, even with the two-turn anarchy, I didn't want to switch a lot.

The Romans got Newton's, and Portugal got Bach's, and the wonder cascade was finally over!

In 1110, I captured Carthage city. I had a second leader in there somewhere, who made an army, and a third, who waited to be sent to England. This was silly, of course, as there would soon be shipping available that could ship a full army. Still, Carthage was toast, so I didn't need an army there.

In 1170, England and Rome signed a MPP. That might make things more interesting.

I was the first to medicine, and decided to hang on to it. I wanted to buy from Portugal, and I wanted communism or industrialization. England had both, of course, but I didn't want to help them to pull further ahead. I started making policeman specialists wherever I could. They could even take away corruption in cities with one-shield corruption!

In 1220, I captured Utica, Carthage's last mainland city. I knew that going after their four island cities would just be a resource drain, so I took peace with them for their three non-capitol island cities.

I never did have many workers (most of my workers were just the ones I'd captured in the wars), so it was taking a while to get things railed. This meant that I had to be extra careful not to use the mined tiles up north, because I wasn't going to sacrifice getting my cities connected for a couple of colonies. I wasn't in too much of a hurry to rail the irrigated tiles, of course, but I was still working on getting all of my cities connected! Then, the priority shifted to the hills and mountains, and after that I railed the flat lands and irrigated my captured lands. I eventually set up Elephantine as a two-turn worker factory, although the truth is that it didn't need any MM, so there wasn't much setting up required.

I also started to build a navy, since I didn't have one yet. I knew I'd need to upgrade soon, before I could sail anywhere, but I figured I should start. I completely forgot that I couldn't upgrade frigates, though, or I would have just built galleons for now.

In 1240, Portugal finally had communism. I still had a monopoly on medicine (I had been keeping track of that), so I took communism from Portugal, and a full market value of gold from England. I then sold communism to Rome for a bit of gold.

The SPH was just too temping, so I decided to switch. In Monarchy, I was making 102 gpt at 90% science, with electricity due in 5. I could turn science off to get 519 gpt, and electricity in 44. For an accurate count, I should have turned all my scientists off, but I had a lot of cities and wasn't in the mood.

I revolted to communism, again drawing the two-turn anarchy. I should have cash-rushed defenders in as many of my undefended island cities as possible, because rifles aren't cheap and are hard to poprush in no-harbor island towns, but I didn't think about that until afterwards. I never did get attacked up there, though.

In communism, the first thing I noticed was that no city had more than 3-shield corruption. That was in anarchy no-production mode though, and it went up to a max of five per city once I set up the cities. Now, 90% science could get electricity in 4, with 166 gpt. and I could make 626 gpt at 0%. My cities had changed enough, and a few turns had passed, so it wasn't a true comparison. But, at least I was pretty confident that the switch hadn't made everything worse.

Although I wanted to go and take the fight to England, I entered a building phase. I'd been at war for most of the AD-era, although I hadn't completely neglected building for that time. Still, in communism I wanted police stations, and a SPH, not to mention the factories and other assorted things that needed to be built.

In 1265, OCC Carthage declared war on Portugal! Portugal put them out of their misery in 1300.

I was the first to electricity, and drew a scientific leader. I decided to hold him for ToE. I do think I could have built it without the leader, as I'd been planning to, but it certainly would have been dicey. England had been building suffrage for a while now, although they were the only one, I think.

My best spt cities didn't have rivers, so my best Hoover city was 16 spt (with police specialist) Gergovia. I started my Hoover prebuild in 1285.

In 1280, England declared war on Portugal. To the best of my knowledge (even looking at the replay later), this is the first war that happened on the other continent. Amazing! Portugal has already been starting to fall behind, so I trade them some horses in a lux deal. I hadn't traded electricity yet, and England demanded it. I told Liz to go take a milk bath, and she backed down. England completed suffrage, and I decided to also trade Portugal some iron and coal.

When scientific method came in, I leader-rushed ToE. I then traded electricity for industrialization, and decide to get espionage from England at second, for sanitation. I started the Secret Police Headquarters in 1385.

When I was first to radio, I drew another scientific leader. I do think I could have done ToE or at least Hoover on my own, (I think, I think...) but I went ahead and leader-rushed Hoover in Carthage, and swapped my prebuild to intelligence agency.

In 1420 replaceable parts came in- and England had no rubber! I celebrated, then gleefully declined when she demanded it a few turns later. Once again, England backed down.

At this point I had swapped almost entirely over to builder mode, and had to decide whether I really wanted to go for domination and war with England, or settle down and try to head for space. Space certainly would have been the bolder choice, since England was still out-researching me, and Portugal had been left in the dust. But, I suspected that the space win was going to require a war with England eventually, too. My game had already had a lot of warmongering, and if I was going to ship over to England one way or another, domination was more appealing. With my own continent in 1490 AD, I was already at 47% land and 61% of the population. I figured that one more civ, say, about the size of England, would finish the job.

OK, I suppose I wasn't exactly fair to England there. Certainly it would have been much easier to roll over Rome or Portugal, but I knew that just one of the two wouldn't be enough. Also, war with England served the double purpose of slowing Liz down a bit. I didn't think she could race ahead to space while I attacked Rome and Portugal, but I really didn't want to find out. Plus, at least Portugal had been my ally for years. England had made two demands, now, and was just plain asking to be attacked.

So, it was settled. I built some infantry and some boats, loaded them up, and headed west. I figured that the little island off of England's west coast would be my best approach. It would provide a close landing to the mainland, and require only a turn at sea when I shipped west. I could park some destroyers on the middle tile and ship units without being disturbed.

I thought I'd stopped trading gpt to England, but the turns were going more slowly now, and I got to their borders with 6 more turns of gpt payments to them. I decided to wait. I may be a dastardly leader pursuing a path to world domination, but I honor my gpt deals!

In 1490, Rome and Portugal made peace. In 1510, England declared war on Rome. In 1520, my deals were up, and I declared on England. I'm always cautious, probably over cautious, when declaring war, especially on a stronger civ, so I signed Rome and Portugal on to an alliance.

I landed on that SE England island, and in 1530 had captured my first city there. In 1535, England landed seven cavs next to Entremont, but of course I was ready with my homeland cavs, and was able to kill them all. I did make a note to leave a stack of artillery at home, though.

In 1540 that SE island was mine, and it was time to head for the mainland!

In 1560, I entered the modern age, with all self-research of course. I was fourth in literacy but had built many libraries and universities. Plus, I used scientists instead of taxmen where I wasn't using corruption specialists.

I built my beachhead on the tile that's the furthest East on the other continent. It was cramped and risked flipping, but I wanted to have a home base before I felt I could take cities. That city was kind of nice, because I could pillage the plains and hold the hill, and feel somewhat secure militarily.

Of course, I expected at least a small SOD. It never came. So, the war was more about logistics that anything else.

One interesting thing is that, in this game, none of the AI stayed in a representative government. In 1580, all the AI were either in fascism or anarchy, headed for fascism. In 1590, we were finally "strong" compared to England, accoring to our military advisor.

Warwick, the city closest to my beachhead, flipped back almost right away, but after I recaptured it I held it for the rest of the game.

I was a bit puzzled as to what to do with all the laborers in my captured cities. England was a cultural leader, and I couldn't cash rush! I could pop rush, of course, and run specialists, but I couldn't always count on that being available the turn I needed it (whereas I really didn't have anything to do with my cash anymore, since I wasn't going for space). Since I wanted to poprush as many improvements as possible, I didn't always starve my cities, though, and this created flip risk.

The specialists were very helpful, though.

Here's Nottingham, which is still in resistance. Although I couldn't rush anything in resistance, in any government, I can use civil engineers and policemen. Plus I have communal corruption, and most of the improvements are intact. So, I still have a cathedral due in 3. I had to watch getting too greedy, though, because I wanted to try to make sure the city didn't riot as the resistance ended. I had three flips total, two in Nottingham and that one in Warwick, and I think that they were in civil disorder each time the flips happened.

In 1650 I built the UN, and didn't hold elections. I certainly didn't want to win by diplomacy, even if I could. I figured I was likely to win if it was England and me, but by then England was much reduced. I wouldn't have built it at all if England, and maybe even Portugal, hadn't seemed like a credible threat when I started it.

Anyway, I marched along, still probably building more than I should at home, but certainly gaining ground in England. In 1680 I captured Canterbury, England's last mainland city. That put me at 65/82- not quite enough! I suspected that all I needed was some border expansions in England, but this was slowed a bit by Nottingham's second flip (actually in 1685). I whipped what temples I could, but also rushed a settler for that two-tile island off the west coast of England. In 1705 I founded Glevum on the island, and that took me to 66% exactly. Between turns, I had enough borders expand that I was at 67% when the victory was triggered, so I think I would have won on the same turn with or without Glevum. I certainly didn't want to wait until then to find out that I needed a bit more, though!

It was a very fun game. I'm sure there will be a lot of people with faster wins, but I had a lot of fun. It was challenging enough (techwise and production wise, if not militarily) to be fun the whole way through.

Thanks to T-hawk for another great Epic.

Edit- Forgot my last screenie
Last edited by Grizelda on March 29th, 2004, 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: May 22nd, 2002, 7:37 am

March 29th, 2004, 8:55 am #8

This thread is for reports and discussion on Epic 39. Have at it. You have until the end of Monday to finish playing the game, and until the end of Tuesday to post at least a summary of your result to be included in the official scoring.

There were quite a number of posts in the info thread indicating rushing to finish the game by the deadline. Was this a case of 1) the micromanagement really did make the game take that long, 2) an interesting enough variant to grab people that'd be on the fence about playing and fitting it in, or 3) the old college syndrome of waiting till the last minute no matter when it's due? Probably some of each, I'd wager.
The variant rules for this Epic of not being allowed to mine any arable tiles and to shun representative governments would lead to a less productive empire than usual, and the resulting larger cities should provide for a nice playground for trying out the different types of specialists. To get as much specialists as possible, I decided to go for a sparse empire layout with no or nearly no overlap between cities, so that each city could grow as much as the terrain would allow for. I also decided to go for a space race victory: I hadn't done this in C3C yet, and also wanted to let my cities build as much as possible to experience this variant as much as I could.

After looking at the starting position, I decided to found right on the starting spot. At least my capital would not be hurting that much for shields in the beginning, with two bonus grass, lots of plains, a hill that could be mined and fresh water for size. Since irrigating the wines or the bonus grass would be wasted during despotism, there was not much worker labor to be done at first other than roading for commerce.

Since I knew pottery already, I could shut down science immediately and buy techs once contacts were established, but there had been indications that it may be cheaper now to research a tech by yourself than buying it and you always would have the chance of scoring an SGL, so I checked which civs were in the game to see which techs were already known in the world. Nobody had bronze working or the wheel, so I started to research the wheel at maximum science as trading material. Entremont built three warriors (two for scouting) and then a granary, as usual. Thanks to the agricultural trait, Entremont could be micromanaged for additional shields every time the city was about to grow.

I sent my two scouts north and west, and already the first hut I popped in 3250BC gave me...a settler! Grmpf, surely a boon for my civilization, but not something I like in a tournament. Well, let's hope my usual sloppy play will make up for the advantage this gave me compared to games that didn't get a settler from a hut. The settler was quite far away from my capital, though, and so I decided to move him to a closer location, even if that took several more turns before my second city was founded in 2850BC, at a freshwater location to the west of Entremont near spices. By the way, the replay later showed that every AI had founded their second city before me.

The wheel was discovered in 3050BC, and I started to research mysticism next on my way to monarchy. I hadn't met any of my rivals yet, though, and couldn't trade. A second hut yielded only barbarians, and the first contact I made was Egypt in 2950BC. Then I found Carthage in 2550BC and now could trade the wheel to Egypt for masonry and 35 gold.

On the same turn, Alesia was whipped to complete its temple - I like the religious trait, especially in a game where shields will be scarce and so whipping more powerful! I would whip a temple in every of my new-founded cities while in despotism, and several other buildings as well.

Entremont built its first settler in 2770BC, and I decided to go for the pyramids soon, even if I would not be allowed to mine all the nice tiles at Entremont. But I hadn't self-built them in a long time, and this being only emperor, it should not be a problem for me to get them. Additionally, my scouting had revealed lots of land for me to grab even if I delayed my expansion by building a wonder, and so the granary in every city would be quite powerful. So after the settler, Entremont built a temple, then a worker to irrigate the plains and mine the hill, then started with the pyramids.

A third hut again only gave me barbs, and my third city was founded in 2150BC near the furs to the east. In 1700BC I discovered polytheism first and traded it to Carthage for warrior code, bronze working and alphabet. Monarchy at max science still would need 50 turns to complete and my research wouldn't increase much in the near future, so I decided to go for mathematics next.

My scouts spotted a razed city between Egypt and Carthage, so there had to be war already between these two - good for me, that would probably delay their expansion a bit. Another hut produced only barbs, and finally Alesia, my second city, was ready to produce settlers. Camulodunum was founded in 1375BC, again with enough distance to its neighbours so no overlap would occur.

Mathematics came in in 1275BC and was traded to Egypt for iron working and some gold (Carthage knew it already), and I was delighted to see that Comulodunum had iron in reach! Research was set to monarchy now. Richborough was founded in 1150BC, on a bonus grassland at the coast, now that I knew I would regain the extra shield once it would reach size seven.

England had completed the colossus already in 1350BC, but the next wonder to fall was...the pyramids for me in 850BC!

Portugal cascaded and finished the statue of Zeus the next turn. I sold my two granaries in Entremont and Alesia, and because this had gone so smooth and Alesia was a good enough settler factory, Entremont immediately started to build the temple of Artemis as a prebuild for another wonder, probably the hanging gardens. The pyramids had set off my golden age (unexpectedly, as usual...) and so I was sure to get another good wonder.

In the screenshot you can see a settler/warrior pair on the far left - this became Verulamium the next turn, securing more wines, and several precious forests for good production. I also built a curragh and sent it out exploring, and it found Rome in 670BC before it got lost in treacherous waters on the same turn trying to cross the distance to the other continent. Rome had several techs I didn't know, and I had discovered monarchy and revolted two turns before. So now I traded polytheism to Rome for writing and some money, then monarchy for map making, code of laws, philosophy and horseback riding! It's always nice to make contacts first.

I researched literature next and discovered it in 550BC. Entremont would have completed the hanging gardens next turn, but I decided otherwise and switched to the great library instead and completed it five turns later. I had decided to do a lot of my own research this game, but with this much land to grab, that could wait until the land-grab phase was over and my cities were developed a bit, so the great library would allow me the accumulation of some cash and the rushing of key buildings.

England found me in 470BC by settling a city on the small island east of Entremont. I ferried over a warrior to that island to explore a hut, but only got barbarians again. Later I founded a city on that island, too.

Thanks to the golden age, Alesia had a nice 6-turn cycle of producing two spears and one settler, and so Entremont had started to construct another wonder after the great library immediately, whatever this may become. Meanwhile, embassies revealed that Portugal and England were at war with Rome, but England made peace soon thereafter. The great library got me into the medieval age in 410BC, on the same turn I received the message that I could build the forbidden palace now.

The AIs completed several wonders next: Rome got the great wall, Carthage the Mausoleum of Mausollos, and Egypt the Temple of Artemis and the Hanging Gardens which I would have finished four turns later, oh well. Entremont switched to the Great Lighthouse, which I didn't really want to have, and slowed down production. And luckily, two turns before it would have been completed, feudalism came out of the library and I was happy to finish Sun Tzu's instead.

I self-built three wonders in a shield-challenged game.

In the shot, you can see that I had Camulodunum set up as a two turn worker factory, which I desperately needed. I had finally found Portugal in 110AD, and they now declared war on England. My landgrab was done in 330AD, and when chivalry came out of the library in 350AD, I made the typical I-am-a-scholar-of-the-great-library-and-so-I-am-very-rich move of upgrading eight horsemen to knights and declared war on Egypt in 390AD! Here's the situation prior to the declaration.

I captured El-Armana and razed Byblos (too much overlap!) on the first turn. On the same turn, gunpowder came out of the library and I discovered I had no saltpeter! The nearest source was under Carthagenian control, so I already knew what to do after the Egyptian war...

Anyway, Egypt defended only poorly, mostly with warriors, archers and longbows, and so I razed Giza in 450AD but made peace with them to focus on getting a source of saltpeter instead. Two cities were founded in ex-Egyptian lands, and troops were healed, reinforced and moved into position. Education came in in 480AD, and I started full research on chemistry on my way to military tradition. Which brings me back to my goal of acquiring saltpeter...well, Carthage had no horses. Too bad for them.

Note in the shot of razing Oea how my workers were busy removing the Egyptian mines near Lugdunum - they had to correct several of these ecological mistakes other nations had done to nature.

And while my units razed the offending saltpeter city of Rusicade, the general who had thought up this brilliant plan showed up!

He immediately formed an army which I left empty for the moment, waiting for cavalry. Although my objective was met, I did not make peace with Carthage yet to fish for leaders and to settle the gaps. Note the swamp in the shot? I wanted to found a city on that exact spot, and for the first time in C3C had to clear a swamp first before being able to settle. Annoying!

I finally made peace after razing another city, Hippo, in 660AD. I was satisfied about having saltpeter, but not so satisfied about a very long, stretched-out border to Egypt.


Joined: May 22nd, 2002, 7:37 am

March 29th, 2004, 8:57 am #9

Well, that had to wait until cavalry! I discovered military tradition in 740AD and upgraded 9 knights. I totally forgot about the empty army, though... War was declared in 800AD. Alexandria was the first target, although I had to attack it across a river due to a wicked river layout.

I killed a few knights, but otherwise had to fight spears only. And although I could have pressed on if I had dedicated my economy to war, I made peace again now that my borders were straight again. Being not allowed to mine took its toll now: I still had much infrastructure to build.

I entered the industrial era in 930AD, and starving Egyptian scientists helped to shave off a turn which I find rather silly. My high-food size 12-cities had hired several scientists as well, I had prioritized libraries and universities everywhere. Although the science building were not so helpful as in normal games, they still were needed if you wanted to research all by yourself. But I was not the first to become industrial! Rome was. Caesar was in a very impressive 4 turn research mode at the moment, skipping all optional techs and beating me to every tech by two or three turns.

I finally traded for a world map in 1010AD.

I had thought about what government to choose for this game, whether I should remain in monarchy the whole game, or maybe switch to fascism later on which some say is the improved communism of C3C. But having played RBC10, I now beelined to...communism! I didn't have many cities due to my minimize-overlap approach, but my land area was quite large, so I wanted to try out communism under these circumstances. I hope somebody else will use fascism for a comparison! I revolted in 1130AD, and compared to monarchy, both research speed and income increased slightly. But that would improve more later, when the SPHQ would be finished! (By the way, my forbidden palace was located in Alesia)

Next was steam power, which Rome discovered two turns before me, then industrialism which Rome got on the same turn as me. Argh! Couldn't Caesar research something different so we could trade and speed up the tech pace a bit?!? Next up was espionage and the SPHQ in Tolosa, a city bordering Carthage with a very good shield potential (well, very good under the variant rules, that is). That city was chosen because the SPHQ removes corruption nearly completely.

Medicine was discovered on the same turn as Rome again, but then our choices of what to research finally diverged. While I had researched espionage, he had discovered electricity which I now traded for, and while he researched replacable parts next, I went for scientific methods for the theory of evolution. I discovered the tech in 1335AD. On the same turn, England had replacable parts, too, so I traded medicine for it to have access to civil engineers! These sped up the constructio of the theory of evolution.

Now I finally was ahead in tech! But I was really impressed with Caesar. He lacked vital resources: Iron, rubber and coal. He had only an average-sized land. And so he had concentrated on research to gain an advantage at least in that field. Too bad for him he failed.

Oh, by the way, Carthage had declared war on Egypt some centuries before. It was a war with rifles and longbows only, and Carthage actually managed to raze on city, and to pillage Egypt back into the stone age.

I could have crushed both easily, and could have taken control of the whole continent - but why? I wanted to concentrate on the space race and not turn this game even more into your usual warmonger's game.

I built Shakespear's and Suffrage next, and my only city on a river, Camulodunum (my ex worker factory) was constructing one of the most important wonders for me: The Hoover Dam! Some painful micromanaging happened. Cities building units had only scientists as specialists, but when the city started to construct a building, they all had to be changed into civil engineers. And often it was better to hire an additional civil engineer than working a one-shield irrigated plains tile. Only policemen were never hired. And more often than not, I didn't bother with micromanaging my cities at all - I had a very dominant position already despite the non-optimal government and the no-mining rule, so I found it hard to motivate myself to do so. That can also be seen later by my fast total playtime of 10,5 hours.

In 1485AD, Rome landed seven cavalry near on of my cities. I told him to leave, he declared war, I killed his landings easily and made peace again in 1520AD. Nothing exciting, really. To fuel my research, I once in a while sold tech, for example:

In 1530AD I discovered mototized transportation and finally filled the empty army I still had hanging around with tanks. I was now researching most techs in four, but some still in five turns. The modern age was entered in 1550AD, and computers was researched next, needing six turns. I forgot to prebuild for research labs, so fission needed longer to research than it should have. I had prebuilt for SETI in my best-researching city, though. When computers came in, it needed another 10 turns to finish it - 16 without engineers.

I could have gifted all my techs to the other AIs to get them into the modern age, hoping they would research something I had not to speed up my victory, but neglected to do so. Giving up my huge tech lead wasn't very stylish, was it?

Egypt actually dared to declare war on me, and so my tank army finally got something to do and quicky captured both Egyptian cities that were left on the continent, and so Cleo finished the game with an OCC on an island.

It's about time for a word on pollution. What is it actually good for? I HATE pollution - what does it add to the game besides tedium? It's sooo boring to wake up your worker stack, move it to the polluted square, hit "shift-C" a few times, then realize you had clicked it once too often and the first worker was already busy clearing the forest you aren't allowed to replant, so you have to wake him again. Then you have to zoom into the city to reassign the citizen to the tile. Of course the game picks not the taxman who had been working the tile before but a scientist, so you have to change the taxman into a scientist. But because it's a large city with lots of specialists and Firaxis cannot calculare coordinates correctly, you click exactly on the center of the taxman graphics but the neighbouring scientist gets changed instead, so now you have to change two specialists into scientists... ARGH! Because of all the specialists, you cannot let the governor take control of the cities either, and automating workers doesn't help because the tile won't get reworked once the pollution is gone, so again: What is pollution good for? It forces you to keep some workers in the late game, but that's no big deal. And it weakens the AI because it's not very good at cleaning pollution, so all it does is adding tedium. I hate it. I hate it! I HATE it!

But let's stop rambling and go back to the game.

Space 'race' victory in 1774AD, with a tech lead of 8-10 techs. And here's my list of top-producing cities.

My top-producing city is worse than in your normal game of course, but overall I didn't suffer much from the "no mines" variant rule - it felt not very differently, probably because this had only been emperor. Several of my cities had benefitted greatly from building offshore platforms by the way, but they come way too late to be really useful.

Thanks to T-hawk for an interesting variant game!



March 29th, 2004, 10:02 am #10

(Game sponsor here again )

Dwip's report can be found here:

Eighty billion served?

Funny stuff. I'm glad you had a good time.

- Sirian