Epic Thirty-nine: Division of Labor - Info thread

Epic Thirty-nine: Division of Labor - Info thread

Joined: October 23rd, 2000, 8:36 am

March 2nd, 2004, 5:03 am #1

Epic Thirty-nine: Division of Labor is now open! For more information on this Epic, see this page. Please make sure that you've read the variant rules before starting this game- the rules should have an effect right from the start!

I apologize for opening a bit late. There was a bug in the first scenario file, and that had to be taken care of before we could open. Three cheers for sponsors who playtest far enough in to catch these things!

-Griselda
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Sirian
Sirian

March 2nd, 2004, 2:04 pm #2

With only two Epics played since last summer, our War Chest of ideas is fairly bursting. This is a good looking game that T-hawk has crafted, and there are more in the queue, awaiting their day in the sun.

Happy Harvesting to those who try this new variety of Farmer's Gambit.


- Sirian
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Jester
Jester

March 2nd, 2004, 4:39 pm #3

Epic Thirty-nine: Division of Labor is now open! For more information on this Epic, see this page. Please make sure that you've read the variant rules before starting this game- the rules should have an effect right from the start!

I apologize for opening a bit late. There was a bug in the first scenario file, and that had to be taken care of before we could open. Three cheers for sponsors who playtest far enough in to catch these things!

-Griselda
Can you use forests on "arable land" under any circumstances?

The forest right next to the starting location, for instance. It wasn't put there by the player, nor was it conquered from another civ. It's simply there.

Can we use it?

Jester
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T-hawk
T-hawk

March 2nd, 2004, 5:03 pm #4

Sorry, I was unclear on that. The idea is that you can use natural forests, but you can't plant any. I overlooked the case of conquering territory containing forests (which actually happens pretty rarely); it'd be impossible to tell the source of those forests, so go ahead and use them.

Also, it should allow use of acquired tiles with mines if the mines are pillaged (replacing with irrigation isn't the only solution.) The rule should probably read like this: "If you acquire rival territory that has mined tiles that can be irrigated, your cities cannot use them until the mines are removed."
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Joined: September 16th, 2002, 5:17 pm

March 2nd, 2004, 7:18 pm #5

Epic Thirty-nine: Division of Labor is now open! For more information on this Epic, see this page. Please make sure that you've read the variant rules before starting this game- the rules should have an effect right from the start!

I apologize for opening a bit late. There was a bug in the first scenario file, and that had to be taken care of before we could open. Three cheers for sponsors who playtest far enough in to catch these things!

-Griselda
This should be a fun and interesting epic to make my comeback with. Celts are Rel, Agr now right?

Early game shield production will definately be a challenge...I dunno bout others but I (writing this from work) know that I need to read into the civilopedia to remember what techs allow the new specialists, etc; but I seem to recall that they're not until much, much later in the game, meaning that the player will suffer very low shield production in the Ancient and possibly thru the Middle Ages. Careful, careful city placement to allow some shield production in earlier years will be paramount. Those cities may not be so hot later in the game, when you've got the shields covered from improvements, railed hills/mountains, etc.

Like some others, I too was strongly turned off from civ due to the glaring faults in the early releases of C3C. I see a number of them have been resolved (to an extent) in this 1.15 patch, I still don't know exactly how the new FP works, so it should be fun finding out.

"The three most important things in life are counting and speling"

-Anonymous
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Joined: May 21st, 2002, 3:38 pm

March 2nd, 2004, 11:30 pm #6

Yes, the Celts are Religious and Agricultural. And the other change from PTW is that the cost of a Gallic Swordsman is dropped to 40 shields from 50.

Policeman specialists are available at Nationalism, and reduce both shield waste and economic corruption by one unit (before multiplication from buildings.) Civil Engineer specialists are available at Replaceable Parts, and contribute two shields per turn when building an improvement (not a unit); these shields are not subject to either corruption or factory multiplication. And of course, in changes from PTW, each taxman produces two gold per turn and each scientist produces three beakers.

Don't forget that hills and mountains can be mined as normal. Shields will still be scarcer than usual, but what are you going to build with them? Libraries, for example, are less useful when you don't have a Republic trade boost and are hiring scientists. Cathedrals may be less necessary, because specialist citizens are never unhappy. What projects are worthwhile to build is up to the players to figure out.

For the Forbidden Palace, see Alexman's thread over in the CFC Strategy Articles forum.

Lastly, just in case my reply to Hotrod wasn't quite clear, here's the rules on that: You can never work an "arable" tile with a mine. You can always work forests anywhere. You can't plant new forests yourself except on tundra.
Last edited by T-hawk on March 2nd, 2004, 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jabah
Jabah

March 3rd, 2004, 10:46 am #7

Epic Thirty-nine: Division of Labor is now open! For more information on this Epic, see this page. Please make sure that you've read the variant rules before starting this game- the rules should have an effect right from the start!

I apologize for opening a bit late. There was a bug in the first scenario file, and that had to be taken care of before we could open. Three cheers for sponsors who playtest far enough in to catch these things!

-Griselda
Just an extra thought about mining/irrigating.

Consider a plain/desert/grassland with no direct connection to fresh water (trapped inside hills/mountains/toundra...), are we allowed:
- to mine (and work) it before electricity?
- to mine (and work) it after electricity (no should be the answer)?

Same question if the square is not completly trapped but require bringing water from 10 titles/ennemy territory (or other significant difficulties).

I also had the impression that in Conquest (1.15) you can irrigate through a city on hill (which was not possible in PtW), this can/should/must be used to bring water to trapped sector ?

-just an extra thought-
I also think you should be FORCE to remove mining ASAP from captured area as any change (like culture extension) will make the AI reorgonise your citizens without asking and therefore might be a nightmare to check that you are not in 'illegal' situation.
-end of extra thought-


Jabah

PS. I didn't look at the save, so I have no idea if these questions are even relevant or not
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Charis
Charis

March 3rd, 2004, 1:43 pm #8

I was wondering why T-Hawk refered to it as arable land instead of "land you can irrigate." Now I see why -- if the land type is one that, with water, you could irrigate, it's arable and may not be mined. That applies whether you could currently irrigate it or not. Otherwise dry plains would be a great tile.
So for your examples, answer is no, no, and no.
This should probably be clarified on the rules page.

Good question,
Charis
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Ozymandous
Ozymandous

March 3rd, 2004, 3:32 pm #9

I thought the spirit of the Epic would be any land you could irrigate, now or eventually, anyway, so was confused about the confusion.

Lots of rules lawyers around looking for any break they can find, or just those who want clarity before hand? Interesting question.

My view of the "spirit" of the Epic:

-Any land that can be irrigated, now or in the future, cannot EVER get a mine on it. This would include all grassland, plains or desert on the map period, regardless of their location.

-The ONLY land that can have a mine or planted forest on it is hills, mountains and tundra.

-Captured land cannot be worked, i.e. should have ANY mines pillaged immediately, if it is not a hill, mountain or tundra BEFORE it is able to be worked.

That about right? Nice and simple rules. BTW, the specialists are pretty good. I had a 29 size city in Epic 38 that had exactly 9 corrupt shields, so the city was shield corruption free.
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Sirian
Sirian

March 3rd, 2004, 3:51 pm #10

I was wondering why T-Hawk refered to it as arable land instead of "land you can irrigate." Now I see why -- if the land type is one that, with water, you could irrigate, it's arable and may not be mined. That applies whether you could currently irrigate it or not. Otherwise dry plains would be a great tile.
So for your examples, answer is no, no, and no.
This should probably be clarified on the rules page.

Good question,
Charis
I don't want to discourage questions. No question is out of bounds. When I'm sponsoring a game, I endeavor to answer every question at face value. However, this time I'm not sponsoring, so indulge me.

Part of the Epics rules require players to observe the spirit and intent of an event in interpreting other rules. I can't speak for everyone on this, but upon reading the data on Epic 39, I "got it" right away. The idea is clean, simple, and elegant. Once I understood where the game wanted to go, any possible ambiguity in the rules cleared itself up.

Food is to be maximized, shields reduced, while still allowing each terrain TYPE to have a means to be fully improved. Only one means, though. Mining or irrigation, not both. Perhaps T-hawk should have changed the rules for modifying terrain. Then there'd be no confusion. But he didn't, trusting players to be able to manage it.

I would like to encourage players to look for the spirit of an event. The intent, the spirit of the variant, should be clear. Every Epic comes with a mission statement, an overview explaining the design's intent. If you get the big picture, that will help guide you through the rules, past any ambiguities and through situations not necessarily spelled out in the letter of the rules. We do expect you to play from a position of following the spirit of the rules, rather than fumbling around within the letter. This is the key difference between the Epics and other known tournaments. You can guide yourself to a large extent if you can tap into the spirit. You may also enhance your enjoyment if you understand where the game sponsor is trying to lead you and why. If you can develop that level of vision, you'll not only get more out of each game, but perhaps tap into your own creative powers and bring forth ideas of your own for future events. Every good scenario begins with a concept, an intention, a birth of possibility: a spirit that longs to live.

Of course, it's better to be safe than sorry, so you should not hesitate to ask if you are unsure about anything. I do hope, however, that each of you first makes an effort to resolve your own questions, when possible, and finding the spirit in the game is often the key to being able to do that.


End of RB Soap Box monologue.


- Sirian
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