Epic Thirty-eight: Slavetrader Mayan ECC - Reports and Discussion

Epic Thirty-eight: Slavetrader Mayan ECC - Reports and Discussion

Joined: October 23rd, 2000, 8:36 am

February 23rd, 2004, 4:48 am #1

You all know the drill by now, right? If your reports are done, you can post them here.

If you're not done playing, you have until Monday night to complete your game. You have until Tuesday night to post your reports.

If you won't be done playing by Monday night, save your game and post a summary of its status, and for the record it will be considered a "retired" game. You can then take some extra time to complete your game "off the record", and you are still welcome to report on how it went when you are finished.

If you are done with your game, but won't be done with your report by Tuesday night, you want to post at least a game summary by the reporting deadline. Make sure your summary includes all information relevant to the scoring. For this Epic, that would be finish date and type of victory (or loss). I'm sure people would also be interested in how many cities you were able to acquire, and in what era they were built.

Players who post a summary report are encouraged, but not required, to complete a full report whenever they are able.

I can't wait to read theses reports. I hope that you enjoyed this game.

-Griselda
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Joined: August 18th, 2002, 10:42 pm

February 23rd, 2004, 5:21 am #2

You can read my report here. This game was a blast!

http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/dogbo ... 8page1.htm
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Kylearan
Kylearan

February 23rd, 2004, 9:38 am #3

You all know the drill by now, right? If your reports are done, you can post them here.

If you're not done playing, you have until Monday night to complete your game. You have until Tuesday night to post your reports.

If you won't be done playing by Monday night, save your game and post a summary of its status, and for the record it will be considered a "retired" game. You can then take some extra time to complete your game "off the record", and you are still welcome to report on how it went when you are finished.

If you are done with your game, but won't be done with your report by Tuesday night, you want to post at least a game summary by the reporting deadline. Make sure your summary includes all information relevant to the scoring. For this Epic, that would be finish date and type of victory (or loss). I'm sure people would also be interested in how many cities you were able to acquire, and in what era they were built.

Players who post a summary report are encouraged, but not required, to complete a full report whenever they are able.

I can't wait to read theses reports. I hope that you enjoyed this game.

-Griselda
Welcome to my report of Epic 38, a very interesting variant game with the Mayans. The restriction that you have to merge a slave worker into any new-founded city immediately changed not only the opening completely, but also had a big impact on choosing the path to victory and thus the whole game. Several possibilities to play exist.

One extreme option would be to ignore the variant restrictions completely and play this as an OCC: You wouldn't need to fight wars to capture slaves with your javelin throwers that way. But I'm variant scum, and ignoring the variant rules in this game wouldn't be fun.

So I will have to fight an ancient war to expand my empire and the only questions are, how many cities do I want to have, and how many will I be able to get? I will found a second city a lot later than usual, and expansion in general will be slowed down tremendously compared both to normal games and to the expansion rate of the AIs, but the lower number of opponents for this map size will most probably lead to a decent-sized empire, if the ancient war is long enough and goes well. So, how many cities do I want to have?

After the initial expansion phase, there will be another problem which may limit our number of cities. The only unit capable of generating slaves is the 2/2/1 javelin thrower. Not only will there be a time when he becomes useless against strong defenders, we also will lose the ability to produce him once invention and the longbow becomes available! So while we may be able to compensate his weak offense with bombardment for some time, we won't be able to replace losses, and there will be losses once knights and muskets appear, even if they are redlined before our jav throwers attack.

All this leads to the conclusion that in the beginning, we should try to expand as much as possible, preferrably becoming large enough to build the forbidden palace, which should make us strong enough economically to win via UN or space race, or to raze every enemy city and go for a conquest win.

That's why I decided to go for domination. Yep, that will be hard and I don't know if I can make it at all, but I sure as hell will try! The plan is to wage war in ancient times as long as possible to capture as many slaves as possible, with heavy use of cannons later to prolong the life of my jav throwers, to generate a big enough reserve to be able to found enough cities later to reach the 66% land area and population threshold. Population will probably not be the problem, but land area will be.

Will I be able to accomplish this? Let's find out...




I moved the worker to the floodplain and the settler to the northwest, away from the bonus grass, and found ivory. Nice! Chichen Itza was founded and produced two warrior scouts and then a granary. Research was of course set to warrior code at max rate, to make javelin throwers available, and then shut down.

The Dutch found me in 3150BC, and China in 2900BC. I had a monopoly on masonry, so traded it together with 9 gold to the Dutch for alphabet and bronze working and started minimum science on mathematics.

After my capital had finished the granary, it produced a barracks, then two spearmen for defense and MP duty, and then was set to produce javelin throwers. I met Carthage in 2310BC. Some turns later, I traded 147 gold to China for the wheel, and the wheel, 40 gold and 4gpt to Carthage for iron working. I wanted to declare war soon and wanted to know here my enemy's horses and iron are!

In 2070BC, my first javelin thrower was finished - time for war! It looked like the Dutch were the only civ south of me, so I declared on them. Let's see if I can get my first slaves from their bonus starting units!

Killing two of their warriors in 1725BC sparked my golden age, but gave me no slaves.

1675BC, another two warriors were killed, but no slaves.

1625BC, another two. No slaves, no promotions. Hello?

Now the Dutch had founded the city of Eindhoven just south of my capital. I killed the spear in it and razed the city in 1550BC: No slave, no promotion.

1525BC, another dead warrior.

1475BC saw at least my first promotion, but still no slave. Nine killed units should have given me approx. three slaves, but...nothing. Uh, under these cirumcstances, domination will be hard to reach.

I had built a settler already, anxiously waiting for the first slave - and finally, in 1375BC, a Dutch spearman was enslaved! About time, really. The settler, an escort and the slave began to move to found my second city - I really could need a higher unit support!

But before they reached their destination, a task force of jav throwers razed another Dutch city, Groningen, which had been built atop of iron. No swordmen, please!



And finally, Copan was founded and the slave merged in in 1300BC, near the ruins of Eindhoven. I guess most people had their second city a lot earlier.

A short time later, Carthage demanded some gold - and I caved. I was busy with the Dutch, and with my small number of cities couldn't deal with another enemy on a different front, especially one with a 2/3 unit. But apart from the lack of slaves, the war against the Dutch went well. Le Hague was razed in 1175BC, killing two spears, but it needed three more dead units before another slave turned up. Time to found my third city, Palenque, in 1025BC!



Notice that I'm about to raze Maastricht and that two stacks of mine are advancing on the Dutch capital. Now the spell was broken and I started to generate slaves on a more reasonable basis, and even better scored a great leader in 1000BC! Unfortunately I wasn't able to form an army immediately because I only had three cities, but after founding Tikal two turns later, I had a jav thrower army. I didn't realize it at that time, but this army was the best that could have happened to me - an army full of javelin throwers can still enslave enemies and is much stronger, so I would be able to generate slaves much longer against stronger units. But more on that later.

I now had three spears and five jav throwers pillaging the tiles around Amsterdam, most important the horses there. They also managed to defeat several attacking archers and horsemen but were not strong enough to attack the capital itself, so waited for the army to arrive. And in 710BC, after losing four javs...



I was careful to differentiate between captured and enslaved workers, using the shift-N trick T-hawk proposed.

Some turns earlier, Rome had demanded some gold from me, and I had caved a second time - again a civ with a 3-defense unit I wasn't ready to fight. Yet. Apparently Caesar then had threatened Carthage as well, because war broke out between these two, and later Germany and China joined the fray against Carthage as well, which was fine with me - more time for me to fight the Netherlands and to found more cities. So Yaxchilan was founded near iron and dyes, and Utrecht was razed next (netting two slaves). Since the Dutch now had only one city left, I decided to make peace in 550BC for all they had: Code of laws, map making, horseback riding, mysticism and 9 gold pieces. I had several slaves now, and it was time to expand and to improve my lands a bit.



During the next centuries, several new slave cities were founded, one claiming the ex Dutch iron. I also did some more trades in 270BC: 500g and 16gpt to Carthage for the republic; the republic to China for currency, polytheism and 20 gold; currency to Carthage for 260 gold. Now that I finally knew the republic, I...er...I somehow forgot to revolt! It's always the same: If I do some more trades on the turn I get a new government, I tend to forget to revolt. Stupid, stupid me. I noticed that in 10BC, banged my head against the next wall, and then revolted, drawing another six turn of anarchy.

But before that happened, my peace deal with the Dutch was about to expire in 170BC. I had my last settler/slave/spear trio on the way, so it was about time to generate more slaves: War was redeclared in 70BC. This immediately caused trouble, as every city of mine except my capital had a Dutch slave, which immediately became unhappy... During the same year, I was able to beat a Chinese settler by one turn to horses in the jungles to the north. This city was stretching my empire quite a bit, but getting a second horse resource was worth the risk.

The Netherlands posed no problems of course, and I intended to get rid of them completely this time. Haarlem was razed in 50BC, and in 30AD, while enslaving a Dutch spearman guarding a settler, a second leader spawned! I sent him to Chichen Itza with the intention of rushing the heroic epic.

Well, both plans (destroying the Dutch, rushing the epic) had to be reevaluated in 90AD when this happened:



This was the current situation: Rome had finally destroyed Carthage two turns ago. I was still in anarchy for another turn. My rather weak army was occupied with the Dutch in the west. The Chinese were right on top of me, and had lots of land. My border to them was long and full of jungle. But - the Dutch would soon be destroyed, and I needed more slaves! Additionally, the leader had just arrived in Chichen Itza and still could form a second army, so I refused to pay the tribute, and China declared war.

Destroying the Dutch wasn't a priority anymore, so I made peace with them again and hurried all my troops to the Chinese border. I was a republic now and had set up two 2-turn worker factories, which I decided to continue despite the new, more dangerous war. I desperately needed more workers! That meant that my second army remained empty for some turns, though.

My first jav army had to defend Palenque alone for some turns, because my other javelin throwers were slower to arrive there. It had to kill and enslave several horses, using the terrain to its advantage, but eventually had to heal for a turn, and my second army was forced to move to Palenque to defend it against a horse despite the fact it only contained two javelin throwers yet.

And it got worse! I refused to pay tribute to the Germans, and they declared war on me as well. My armies were busy defending Palenque while I slowly accumulated enough troops to go onto the offense there, but only a few turns later, the first German MDIs appeared near my weakly defended northwestern iron and horse cities. They were busy building temples, but I had to switch to walls to protect them, losing dozens of shields.

And it got even worse! In 260AD, Germany bought Rome into the war against me, too. I started to build catapults now, expecting to see legionaries soon. On the bright side, though, I got more and more slaves, and had enough units at Palenque now to attack Chinan, razing it in 270AD. Bad combat luck left my army with only three hitpoints in the open in reach of a Chinese horse, and bad strategy left me unable to cover it. Lucky for me, the horse enslaved itself against the army.

But in 310AD, the situation threatened to get out of control. A SoD of six German MDIs appeared at my northwestern horse city, and against that, not even walls would help. Additionally, China surprised me by sending two horses to a weakly defended city in the same region, so I decided to make peace with both nations. From China, I was able to get a discount on feudalism, but Germany I had to pay 120 gold for peace, which I swore won't remain unrevenged!

I used the slaves to found cities again, one on ex-Chinan, and waited for the Romans to appear. And they did come! In 360AD, 12 MDIs, 3 legionaries and three archers could be seen. I positioned my units to pick on them on their way to my core. I killed what I could, but in 410AD, 20 MDIs, 8 archers, 4 legionaries and a longbow were still alive and were threatening Palenque and Tikal!



That was way too much for me to handle, so I renegotiated peace with Rome. Despite killing a lot of Caesar's units, I still had to pay 40 gold to him.

Some quiet turns followed, where I founded more cities and improved my core. But in 490AD, I still had extra slaves but no more room to settle, so it was time again to clean up my backyard. My Dutch citizens didn't like that, but were wise enough to shut up in 620AD when...


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Joined: May 22nd, 2002, 7:37 am

February 23rd, 2004, 9:52 am #4

Meanwhile, Rome had declared war on China, which I very much liked - they had way too much units for my taste. Unfortunately, China had no iron to defend itself, but that changed when one of my sources was exhausted in 550AD.

On the same year I had destroyed the Dutch, I traded for invention, meaning that I was no longer able to build javelin throwers! All new slaves had to come from my existing javelin throwers and my two armies of course. After settling all of ex-Netherlands, I still had about 20 slaves left, which wouldn't be enough for a domination victory...

But I felt my empire needed a rest from all the warring, and so I concentrated on infrastructure for some time. The forbidden palace completed in 640AD, and some trading got me to tech parity. Meanwhile, Germany was dragged into the war against China. I started to build libraries and universities in my core, because I planned to research military tradition for myself. I discovered it in 1000AD while the AIs still lacked metallurgy. I started to upgrade horsemen, and since China was losing badly now, I decided it was time to join the dogpile to get my share of Mao's lands!



China was gassed already, so I had few opportunities to attack weak units in the open with my javelin throwers, but at least my cavalry provided more room to settle for my existing slaves. With my nice income, I began to rush two cavs per turn in low-production cities now, to use my window of opportunity before riflemen would appear on the scene. And just when I decided to declare war on Germany as well, Otto decided to sneak attack me and moved lots of units into my territory, probably annoyed by my aggressive settling. Well, so be it - I told him to leave, he declared, and my javelin throwers had another opportunity to show they're not yet outdated!



I used cavalry to attack cities and to get rid of muskets, and used cannons to soften up any other units and killed them with my javelin throwers. Unfortunately, they now had nationalism, so the war got a bit more bloody. To avoid that Caesar would buy nationalism from Otto and to give him something to do, I bought an alliance with him against Germany. Several German cities were razed the following century, but unfortunately I lost several precious javelin throwers as well due to bad luck, like attacking a redlined longbow in the open and losing. But my two armies were still alive and kicking!

Rome destroyed China in 1190AD, and I razed Berlin three turns later, after losing many a horse. Settling ex-German territory had left me with only 7 slaves, though, and unfortunately I only faced German riflemen now, and dared not to attack them with my feeble javelin throwers, even when redlined. Later, I razed Nuremburg with its great lighthouse and Leo's workshop, and sadly reflected just how many great wonders had been destroyed by me already...

In 1280AD, I decided I really needed more slaves, but Germany was nearly dead now, so I declared war on Rome. They were industrial already, but still lacked nationalism and had lots of low-defense units, and my military railnet was finished, so that was the perfect time! Four Roman cities got razed on the first turn alone, and in their weak counter they exposed several longbows and MDIs. Yummy, slaves!

Several turns later, though, lots of Roman cavalry appeared. And while I had some bad luck attacking them, needing two cavs to kill on of theirs on average, my superior economy was able to produce enough reinforcements to guarantee an overall successful war. In 1335AD, I discovered replacable parts. War weariness hit me, but I didn't really care.

I had more room to settle than slaves now, but here's another example how lucky I had been to have two jav thrower armies - together with artillery, they were still able to generate more slaves!



I surpassed Rome in both land and population now. What followed was stoic execution of industrial warfare: Rail to enemy border, cover workers with infantry, attack and raze city with cavalry, cover cavalry, rinse and repeat. I scored two more leaders which immediately became cav armies. I lost a large stack of workers to a misclick, but didn't care. Every slave I generated immediately joined a settler and founded a new city, which got a temple rushed next turn. I had lost all normal jav throwers except three now, but my two armies were still alive - and were needed, because Rome ran out of gas and I had to enslave redlined riflemen now, which was scary at times!

In 1460AD, Rome itself was razed.



And you know what? ROME WAS STILL A DEMOCRACY. I had razed most of their cities, killed gazillions of their units, captured their workers, disconnected their luxuries...and yet they managed to remain a democracy?!? Sorry, but there's something seriously wrong here. Something similar had happened to me twice before, and I suspect there's a bug here. What I would like to know, has anybody ever managed to knock an AI out of democracy in Conquests? Please speak up!

Anyway, in 1465AD I founded another city, and the name "New " was proposed to me. Another minor bug I guess, because if I remember correctly, in PTW "New Chichen Itza 2" would have been proposed next, right?

Anyway, in 1475AD it was over.



I never got to industrialization or sanitation, I didn't need that because the finishing date was only dependant on how many slaves my jav thrower armies were able to generate.

Really a fun game! Especially the opening played very differently, and I'm curious to see how others decided to play this. I had fun carrying this variant to the extreme and to go for a domination win, although I fear there won't be much competition for this victory type. Or maybe there will? I certainly hope so!

Thanks Charis and Griselda for running this first C3C Epic! From the "finished!" posts, I saw some well-known CFC players have decided to play their first Epic, which is good news! Welcome, and I'm really looking forward to your reports.

-Kylearan
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Bede
Bede

February 23rd, 2004, 2:52 pm #5

You all know the drill by now, right? If your reports are done, you can post them here.

If you're not done playing, you have until Monday night to complete your game. You have until Tuesday night to post your reports.

If you won't be done playing by Monday night, save your game and post a summary of its status, and for the record it will be considered a "retired" game. You can then take some extra time to complete your game "off the record", and you are still welcome to report on how it went when you are finished.

If you are done with your game, but won't be done with your report by Tuesday night, you want to post at least a game summary by the reporting deadline. Make sure your summary includes all information relevant to the scoring. For this Epic, that would be finish date and type of victory (or loss). I'm sure people would also be interested in how many cities you were able to acquire, and in what era they were built.

Players who post a summary report are encouraged, but not required, to complete a full report whenever they are able.

I can't wait to read theses reports. I hope that you enjoyed this game.

-Griselda
Victory Date: 1934
Victory Type: OCC Cultural

Considering the enslavement gambit but the lack of barbarians (no cheap enslavement possibilities) I decide to refuse the gambit and build an OCC 20K strategy. The other route would have meant an "Always War" game, at least during the Expansion Phase.

The somewhat shield-poor starting location ( only one bonus grassland underneath the settler/worker pair, but a flood plain and plains on all sides) lead to the decision to move the settler and it is at this point I make the first of many missteps by moving the settler due east instead of northeast. The move does reveal elephants in the neighborhood but the better move would have given the capital two river protected approaches and pulled the floodplain into use immediately.

Once the capital is founded the first order of business is a granary and research is started on Ceremonial Burial posthaste The founding reveals an elephant graveyard in the neighborhood so I know I will have at least one tradeable surplus

The first border expansion reveals that the opening misstep will have greater consequences than first thought as there is a floodplain wheat that would have been within the borders.

Summary of Major Events

The year 1790BC sees the first of many wars between and among the Netherlands, China, Rome, the Germans and the Carthiginians in various combinations The Maya are the cultural leaders by that point

Maya build Great Library in 1125BC

Interestingly enough, even though I kept the research rate high and discovered several AA technologies first (the Great Library kept the Mayans militarily current while the scientists focused on culture producing avenues) the Maya never produced an SGL During the Middle and Industrial Ages the increasing cost of technology meant the Maya were always behind, though occasionally at parity

Netherlands built the Pyramids in 1025BC

The Maya build the Statue of Zeus in 730BC relieving my military concerns I had by that point built two warriors for MP duty. There was no iron within our borders until the Industrial Age, so no swords could be built

Romans build the Oracle in 390BC

Carthage builds the Great Lighthouse in 270BC

Maya build Hanging Gardens in 90AD triggering the Golden Age

Maya builds the Knights Templar in 290AD and now my military worries are really over with Fast Attack and Heavy Infantry churning out every five turns

Netherlands builds the Temple of Artemis in 350AD and the Colussus in 370AD

Carthage builds Sun Tzu's Art of War in 450AD and the Romans build the Great Wall in 460AD

Netherlands starts its Golden Age in 540AD and builds Leonardo's Workshop and Copernicus' Observatory in 550AD

Maya builds Sistine Chapel in 600AD and Carthage builds Magellans Voyage

By this point everybody in the world is at war with Germany and the German cities are disappearing from the map with the rhythm of a fine clock and Germany is dismantled by 900AD

Maya build Bach's Cathedral in 1010AD and Carthage builds Newton U

With the demise of Germany the world goes for the Romans

Carthage builds Shakespeare's Theatre in 1220AD

China enters their Golden Age in 1350AD as the Chinese Riders sweep across Roman territory

Carthage builds Universal Suffrage in 1425AD

By this point the Chinese and Carthiginians have put their attentions on the Netherlands

Maya build Theory of Evolution in 1565AD

Maya build Hoover Dam in 1635AD

At this point the Maya are the only Democracy left, all others are Fascists.

By 1772 The Hague is captured by Carthage and the Netherlands is gone. In 1784 Rome is captured by Hannibal and it is only China, Carthage and Maya. At various points during the seemingly endless conflicts Chichen Itza was attacked by the desperate Netherlands and/or the Romans and their attacks were beaten back by a combination of catapaults/cannons/artillery, Ancient Cavalry/Crusaders/Infantry The Roman and Dutch cavalry were easy prey for concentrated combined arms. I think my entire military losses were two Crusaders and three Ancient Cavalry and at the end of the game there were 36 units defending the capital All were late industrial as I disbanded the Ancient Cavalry and Crusaders as Industrial Age units trained up to replace them The closest source of saltpeter kept fallling in and out of Mayan control as borders surrounded and contracted so I don't think I ever built any muskets and never did buy or research Military Tradition. At some point with Carthagianian tanks hanging around Chichen Itza I join Mao in in a Mutual Protection Pact and this deterred Carthage, briefly..

Immediately after the Fall of Rome Carthage and China go to war and this conflict lasts for the remainder of the game with occasional short respites

In 1800AD Carthage attacks China The MPP is triggered and Carthage moves on Chichen Itza with a couple of tanks. Artillery fire and a Crusader supported by Radar Towers put an end to that. Every once in a while a Carthaginian bomber or two would attack Chichen Itza As soon as the MPP expired I signed a Peace Treaty with Cathage and remained at peace for the rest of the game

For the next 132 years I build infantry when I can buy rubber and fighter planes and bombers when I can buy oil but mostly watched the catfight among the neighbors. As I didn't have much territory or any strategic resources to speak of the city-state was never really attractive to them


Missteps
Wrong settler move
Delayed building cathedral, colosseum and university
Used Mutual Protection Pact with China to deter Carthage when the common enemy of Carthage and China was almost finished (I should have looked at the map) This drew me into war with Carthage but at least by the time it occurred I had had time to build radar towers and Civil Defense

Falling behind in technology in the late Industrial Age and not building the UN. Fortunately by the time Carthage finished the United Nations the only candidates left were Mao and Hannibal and the two had been at war for most of the last century

The biggest challenge of the game was keeping the trade routes open for the acquisition of strategic resources and luxuries. Only iron and ivory were within the borders (occasionally saltpeter and for a brief time early in the game spices from a colony) but I had to buy coal, rubber, oil and all the other luxes from one or another of the warring nations. Luckily I seemed to have the monopoly on ivory and once the Temple of Zeus was built kept it in constant circulation, even occcasionally trading all of it when I had to. After railroads were built and I had built a quantiity of cannon equal to my defensive forces I traded my iron to Caesar for technology. Luxuries and resources were relatively cheap to buy but after the mid Middle Ages technology got really really expensive. Once I had a factory in Chichen Itza and enough defenders to withstand all but the largest SoD there were long stretches when I produced only wealth in order to either buy or self research to the point of affordability

The Space Race was never as factor as China and Carthage spent their budgets on warmaking units and technologies.
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Jabah
Jabah

February 23rd, 2004, 3:12 pm #6

Meanwhile, Rome had declared war on China, which I very much liked - they had way too much units for my taste. Unfortunately, China had no iron to defend itself, but that changed when one of my sources was exhausted in 550AD.

On the same year I had destroyed the Dutch, I traded for invention, meaning that I was no longer able to build javelin throwers! All new slaves had to come from my existing javelin throwers and my two armies of course. After settling all of ex-Netherlands, I still had about 20 slaves left, which wouldn't be enough for a domination victory...

But I felt my empire needed a rest from all the warring, and so I concentrated on infrastructure for some time. The forbidden palace completed in 640AD, and some trading got me to tech parity. Meanwhile, Germany was dragged into the war against China. I started to build libraries and universities in my core, because I planned to research military tradition for myself. I discovered it in 1000AD while the AIs still lacked metallurgy. I started to upgrade horsemen, and since China was losing badly now, I decided it was time to join the dogpile to get my share of Mao's lands!



China was gassed already, so I had few opportunities to attack weak units in the open with my javelin throwers, but at least my cavalry provided more room to settle for my existing slaves. With my nice income, I began to rush two cavs per turn in low-production cities now, to use my window of opportunity before riflemen would appear on the scene. And just when I decided to declare war on Germany as well, Otto decided to sneak attack me and moved lots of units into my territory, probably annoyed by my aggressive settling. Well, so be it - I told him to leave, he declared, and my javelin throwers had another opportunity to show they're not yet outdated!



I used cavalry to attack cities and to get rid of muskets, and used cannons to soften up any other units and killed them with my javelin throwers. Unfortunately, they now had nationalism, so the war got a bit more bloody. To avoid that Caesar would buy nationalism from Otto and to give him something to do, I bought an alliance with him against Germany. Several German cities were razed the following century, but unfortunately I lost several precious javelin throwers as well due to bad luck, like attacking a redlined longbow in the open and losing. But my two armies were still alive and kicking!

Rome destroyed China in 1190AD, and I razed Berlin three turns later, after losing many a horse. Settling ex-German territory had left me with only 7 slaves, though, and unfortunately I only faced German riflemen now, and dared not to attack them with my feeble javelin throwers, even when redlined. Later, I razed Nuremburg with its great lighthouse and Leo's workshop, and sadly reflected just how many great wonders had been destroyed by me already...

In 1280AD, I decided I really needed more slaves, but Germany was nearly dead now, so I declared war on Rome. They were industrial already, but still lacked nationalism and had lots of low-defense units, and my military railnet was finished, so that was the perfect time! Four Roman cities got razed on the first turn alone, and in their weak counter they exposed several longbows and MDIs. Yummy, slaves!

Several turns later, though, lots of Roman cavalry appeared. And while I had some bad luck attacking them, needing two cavs to kill on of theirs on average, my superior economy was able to produce enough reinforcements to guarantee an overall successful war. In 1335AD, I discovered replacable parts. War weariness hit me, but I didn't really care.

I had more room to settle than slaves now, but here's another example how lucky I had been to have two jav thrower armies - together with artillery, they were still able to generate more slaves!



I surpassed Rome in both land and population now. What followed was stoic execution of industrial warfare: Rail to enemy border, cover workers with infantry, attack and raze city with cavalry, cover cavalry, rinse and repeat. I scored two more leaders which immediately became cav armies. I lost a large stack of workers to a misclick, but didn't care. Every slave I generated immediately joined a settler and founded a new city, which got a temple rushed next turn. I had lost all normal jav throwers except three now, but my two armies were still alive - and were needed, because Rome ran out of gas and I had to enslave redlined riflemen now, which was scary at times!

In 1460AD, Rome itself was razed.



And you know what? ROME WAS STILL A DEMOCRACY. I had razed most of their cities, killed gazillions of their units, captured their workers, disconnected their luxuries...and yet they managed to remain a democracy?!? Sorry, but there's something seriously wrong here. Something similar had happened to me twice before, and I suspect there's a bug here. What I would like to know, has anybody ever managed to knock an AI out of democracy in Conquests? Please speak up!

Anyway, in 1465AD I founded another city, and the name "New " was proposed to me. Another minor bug I guess, because if I remember correctly, in PTW "New Chichen Itza 2" would have been proposed next, right?

Anyway, in 1475AD it was over.



I never got to industrialization or sanitation, I didn't need that because the finishing date was only dependant on how many slaves my jav thrower armies were able to generate.

Really a fun game! Especially the opening played very differently, and I'm curious to see how others decided to play this. I had fun carrying this variant to the extreme and to go for a domination win, although I fear there won't be much competition for this victory type. Or maybe there will? I certainly hope so!

Thanks Charis and Griselda for running this first C3C Epic! From the "finished!" posts, I saw some well-known CFC players have decided to play their first Epic, which is good news! Welcome, and I'm really looking forward to your reports.

-Kylearan
You managed to do what I wanted to but was not able when I lost my 2 javelineers armies...

report later

Jabah
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Griselda
Griselda

February 23rd, 2004, 5:13 pm #7

You can read my report here. This game was a blast!

http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/dogbo ... 8page1.htm
You can't get much more "down to the wire" then that! Congratulations on what sounds like an exciting game.

I'm glad you weren't put into a situation where you had to recapture your capitol. The recapture of cities came up in the intro thread, but I didn't specify on the main Epic's page. Anyway, you would have been free to recapture Lagartero instead of razing it, because you can capture cities if they were originally founded with one of your merged workers. You just couldn't recapture a city if it flipped to you and then you lost it. I probably should have put that up on the page, sorry.

So, I suppose that means you won the game with one city to spare! I wonder- if you would have had two reserved slaves instead of one, would you have been more likely to have fought the Chinese at some point? I know I felt like declaring war on them just from reading your report. But, if you had fought the Chinese, that might have slowed you down enough that the Romans would have launched first!

-Griselda
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T-hawk
T-hawk

February 23rd, 2004, 8:11 pm #8

Victory Date: 1934
Victory Type: OCC Cultural

Considering the enslavement gambit but the lack of barbarians (no cheap enslavement possibilities) I decide to refuse the gambit and build an OCC 20K strategy. The other route would have meant an "Always War" game, at least during the Expansion Phase.

The somewhat shield-poor starting location ( only one bonus grassland underneath the settler/worker pair, but a flood plain and plains on all sides) lead to the decision to move the settler and it is at this point I make the first of many missteps by moving the settler due east instead of northeast. The move does reveal elephants in the neighborhood but the better move would have given the capital two river protected approaches and pulled the floodplain into use immediately.

Once the capital is founded the first order of business is a granary and research is started on Ceremonial Burial posthaste The founding reveals an elephant graveyard in the neighborhood so I know I will have at least one tradeable surplus

The first border expansion reveals that the opening misstep will have greater consequences than first thought as there is a floodplain wheat that would have been within the borders.

Summary of Major Events

The year 1790BC sees the first of many wars between and among the Netherlands, China, Rome, the Germans and the Carthiginians in various combinations The Maya are the cultural leaders by that point

Maya build Great Library in 1125BC

Interestingly enough, even though I kept the research rate high and discovered several AA technologies first (the Great Library kept the Mayans militarily current while the scientists focused on culture producing avenues) the Maya never produced an SGL During the Middle and Industrial Ages the increasing cost of technology meant the Maya were always behind, though occasionally at parity

Netherlands built the Pyramids in 1025BC

The Maya build the Statue of Zeus in 730BC relieving my military concerns I had by that point built two warriors for MP duty. There was no iron within our borders until the Industrial Age, so no swords could be built

Romans build the Oracle in 390BC

Carthage builds the Great Lighthouse in 270BC

Maya build Hanging Gardens in 90AD triggering the Golden Age

Maya builds the Knights Templar in 290AD and now my military worries are really over with Fast Attack and Heavy Infantry churning out every five turns

Netherlands builds the Temple of Artemis in 350AD and the Colussus in 370AD

Carthage builds Sun Tzu's Art of War in 450AD and the Romans build the Great Wall in 460AD

Netherlands starts its Golden Age in 540AD and builds Leonardo's Workshop and Copernicus' Observatory in 550AD

Maya builds Sistine Chapel in 600AD and Carthage builds Magellans Voyage

By this point everybody in the world is at war with Germany and the German cities are disappearing from the map with the rhythm of a fine clock and Germany is dismantled by 900AD

Maya build Bach's Cathedral in 1010AD and Carthage builds Newton U

With the demise of Germany the world goes for the Romans

Carthage builds Shakespeare's Theatre in 1220AD

China enters their Golden Age in 1350AD as the Chinese Riders sweep across Roman territory

Carthage builds Universal Suffrage in 1425AD

By this point the Chinese and Carthiginians have put their attentions on the Netherlands

Maya build Theory of Evolution in 1565AD

Maya build Hoover Dam in 1635AD

At this point the Maya are the only Democracy left, all others are Fascists.

By 1772 The Hague is captured by Carthage and the Netherlands is gone. In 1784 Rome is captured by Hannibal and it is only China, Carthage and Maya. At various points during the seemingly endless conflicts Chichen Itza was attacked by the desperate Netherlands and/or the Romans and their attacks were beaten back by a combination of catapaults/cannons/artillery, Ancient Cavalry/Crusaders/Infantry The Roman and Dutch cavalry were easy prey for concentrated combined arms. I think my entire military losses were two Crusaders and three Ancient Cavalry and at the end of the game there were 36 units defending the capital All were late industrial as I disbanded the Ancient Cavalry and Crusaders as Industrial Age units trained up to replace them The closest source of saltpeter kept fallling in and out of Mayan control as borders surrounded and contracted so I don't think I ever built any muskets and never did buy or research Military Tradition. At some point with Carthagianian tanks hanging around Chichen Itza I join Mao in in a Mutual Protection Pact and this deterred Carthage, briefly..

Immediately after the Fall of Rome Carthage and China go to war and this conflict lasts for the remainder of the game with occasional short respites

In 1800AD Carthage attacks China The MPP is triggered and Carthage moves on Chichen Itza with a couple of tanks. Artillery fire and a Crusader supported by Radar Towers put an end to that. Every once in a while a Carthaginian bomber or two would attack Chichen Itza As soon as the MPP expired I signed a Peace Treaty with Cathage and remained at peace for the rest of the game

For the next 132 years I build infantry when I can buy rubber and fighter planes and bombers when I can buy oil but mostly watched the catfight among the neighbors. As I didn't have much territory or any strategic resources to speak of the city-state was never really attractive to them


Missteps
Wrong settler move
Delayed building cathedral, colosseum and university
Used Mutual Protection Pact with China to deter Carthage when the common enemy of Carthage and China was almost finished (I should have looked at the map) This drew me into war with Carthage but at least by the time it occurred I had had time to build radar towers and Civil Defense

Falling behind in technology in the late Industrial Age and not building the UN. Fortunately by the time Carthage finished the United Nations the only candidates left were Mao and Hannibal and the two had been at war for most of the last century

The biggest challenge of the game was keeping the trade routes open for the acquisition of strategic resources and luxuries. Only iron and ivory were within the borders (occasionally saltpeter and for a brief time early in the game spices from a colony) but I had to buy coal, rubber, oil and all the other luxes from one or another of the warring nations. Luckily I seemed to have the monopoly on ivory and once the Temple of Zeus was built kept it in constant circulation, even occcasionally trading all of it when I had to. After railroads were built and I had built a quantiity of cannon equal to my defensive forces I traded my iron to Caesar for technology. Luxuries and resources were relatively cheap to buy but after the mid Middle Ages technology got really really expensive. Once I had a factory in Chichen Itza and enough defenders to withstand all but the largest SoD there were long stretches when I produced only wealth in order to either buy or self research to the point of affordability

The Space Race was never as factor as China and Carthage spent their budgets on warmaking units and technologies.
Good show. Might've been faster to the 20k win by expanding out to a few cities to keep the economy going better, but getting any OCC to any win on Emperor is quite good!

How many units did you have through most of the game? In Republic in C3C, unit costs can really put a drag on the economy. You had "cannons equal to your defensive units" - sounds like that was costing like 20 or more per turn? And with paying for resources on top of that, how'd you even come close to keeping up in tech? I guess Theory of Evolution really helped? Were you researching or buying your techs?

Also interesting to see Carthage turn into a power. Seems like they got killed off in most games, including mine.

Glad to see you participate here, Bede, and hope you'll stick around for more Epics. (Speaking of which, do we have any in the pipeline? )
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Jabah
Jabah

February 23rd, 2004, 11:44 pm #9

You all know the drill by now, right? If your reports are done, you can post them here.

If you're not done playing, you have until Monday night to complete your game. You have until Tuesday night to post your reports.

If you won't be done playing by Monday night, save your game and post a summary of its status, and for the record it will be considered a "retired" game. You can then take some extra time to complete your game "off the record", and you are still welcome to report on how it went when you are finished.

If you are done with your game, but won't be done with your report by Tuesday night, you want to post at least a game summary by the reporting deadline. Make sure your summary includes all information relevant to the scoring. For this Epic, that would be finish date and type of victory (or loss). I'm sure people would also be interested in how many cities you were able to acquire, and in what era they were built.

Players who post a summary report are encouraged, but not required, to complete a full report whenever they are able.

I can't wait to read theses reports. I hope that you enjoyed this game.

-Griselda
It can be found at

http://mapage.noos.fr/jb.gouesse/Epic38/Epic38_r.htm

It is quite big (lots of picture) for just 1 page as I finish playing on Sunday and had no time building a 'proper' report with several pages.

Winning the wrong way (ie. not what I had in mind) in 1838AD.

Game was very interesting especially at the beginning and also until around 1350AD and then, with nationalism and later repl. parts, it was just feeling far too long (my bad for choosing the long bloody path to victory).

Of course comments are welcome

Jabah


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Joined: February 24th, 2004, 12:49 am

February 24th, 2004, 12:49 am #10

You all know the drill by now, right? If your reports are done, you can post them here.

If you're not done playing, you have until Monday night to complete your game. You have until Tuesday night to post your reports.

If you won't be done playing by Monday night, save your game and post a summary of its status, and for the record it will be considered a "retired" game. You can then take some extra time to complete your game "off the record", and you are still welcome to report on how it went when you are finished.

If you are done with your game, but won't be done with your report by Tuesday night, you want to post at least a game summary by the reporting deadline. Make sure your summary includes all information relevant to the scoring. For this Epic, that would be finish date and type of victory (or loss). I'm sure people would also be interested in how many cities you were able to acquire, and in what era they were built.

Players who post a summary report are encouraged, but not required, to complete a full report whenever they are able.

I can't wait to read theses reports. I hope that you enjoyed this game.

-Griselda
First ever report:

Summary: Conquest in 1470AD
Total enslaved 9 workers, 5 Dutch, 2 Cathagian, 2 Roman, so it's a 10 city civ, built two wonders, Statue of Zeus and Colossus.

Short report here:

http://mysite.verizon.net/yznj99/Civ/index.htm
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