Barrel leading

Joined: August 21st, 2013, 3:31 pm

June 10th, 2015, 6:45 pm #11

Hi everyone

Thank you very much for such detailed replies. I think the problem may have been such low powered loads used at the start that obturation failed and by the 16th shot leading had or was occurring. Secondly I have inconsistent cylinder throats ranging from .357 to .35575.

My friend and gunsmith has read all your comments and has decided to ream all throats to .357 and use .357 projectiles with 2.7 Vihtavouri 310 about the same or slightly faster than 2.8 Bullseye. All this into a .3545 barrel with a nice throat. I am also using various HBWC with a range of hardness.

Going to the range for some serious testing Thursday and Friday. Lets hope the weather holds. Well, after all, it is England
Another thing you might want to consider and control is primer seating. Seat them to just that point where you can feel them bottom out in pocket. Don't over seat and crush if possible. For 50 some use a hand priming seating tool so you can feel them seat.
Also, consider a special die, M die that just expands the mouth just enough so the wad cutter sits square and eliminates shaving. The cowboy action shooters use them, called M dies from Lyman. Little extra operation but works good on lead bullets. My suggestion is seat bullets a hair past the mouth lip before crimping, using a very light roll crimp. Consistent crimp pressure is very important also. I purchased a press handle that worked off torque settings for crimping hoping that would do the trick, but another gadget that wasn't any better then normal operation.
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Joined: January 26th, 2014, 5:18 am

June 11th, 2015, 11:00 pm #12

I agree with you there JB, on the bottom and square. I have always turned my cases around 180 degrees and hit them again in the press to ensure they are dead square, never have mishits.

M die is fine, but you still run into crush issues with the soft base squeezing them into the sized case, that's why I had my expander made to suit. I hang mine out around 1/16" and use a light taper crimp. I found that to get the roll crimp consistent that I needed to trim my cases more often than I have time for. I started keeping a couple of hundred just for matches, all the same batch and would religiously trim etc.

You are right also with the gadgets, just that, dust collectors.
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Joined: August 21st, 2013, 3:31 pm

June 13th, 2015, 2:33 am #13

Kent,
Taper crimp is used by many, and I have tried and retried and always came back to roll crimp. Two things, worked better with speed loaders and when taper crimping have to make sure using same head stamps due to wall thickness differences and degree of tension can vary even with same head stamps. With me was not getting the degree of accuracy with the taper crimp I got with the roll crimp. I have tried varying degrees of crimp and always came back to the light roll crimp. Factory loads I have heard a taper crimp die, but almost look like a roll crimp The Redding profile crimping die was supposed to duplicate this type of crimp, tried it too, but never noticed a difference of any increase in accuracy at 50. Found the old Lee factory crimp die works as good as any of them even though their Barnum and Bailey/Herters approach to their advertising did nothing for me, but their dies work pretty good
I like you had a some custom expansion dies made up by a machinist in about 3 different diameters for different bullet diameters, but didn't see anything that was any more impressive in what I settled on. This is just my experience with my guns.
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Joined: November 5th, 2014, 6:52 pm

June 13th, 2015, 10:07 pm #14

Hi All

Well, 2 days of constant testing and about 500 rounds used. Beforehand, I reamed the cylinder throats by hand to .357 with a Manson reamer ordered through Brownells - so it has to be good. I used 2.7 Vihtavouri 310 with a variety of .357 HBWC including some Hornady, some H&N from Germany and locally made smooth sided HBWC's with Allox lube. My results were quite disappointing. Using a 6 X 32 scope at 25 metres and sandbagging failed to achieve that one hole group. Leading was still evident but not detrimental to accuracy. Remember this is down a .3545 barrel.
The next day I dispensed with the scope and went to an Aristocrat sight with 3 position. I went to 2.9 of V310 and introduced 2.9 Bullseye I also had some .356 HBWC with the above load. I also had some .358 DBBWC hard cast in .38 cases and magnum cases with 3.8 Bullseye.

Knock me down with a feather!! 40 rounds of the 2.9 of 310 and Bullseye produced 40 X rings out of 40 shots at 25 metres, the best group coming from using the .356 heads. Should I go down to .355 heads bearing in mind I have .357 cylinder throats.

The 3.8 Bullseye in either the 38 or magnum case with the DBBWC still held the X ring, the best from magnum cases.

These rounds as immediately above (3.8 etc) proved the best at 50 metres, probably enough to hold the 10 ring.

So whats going on? I'm getting results contrary to all my previous experience with the hard cast Double Bevel Base WC's, ostensibly a solid slug of hard lead.

The 1 in 10 twist barrel I'm using seems very good at 25 but in contrast lacking at 50. Am I being too fussy. Should I switch to a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 as a compromise. The PPC is based on a 686.

Over to you most knowledgeable chaps for some more of your most interesting comments.

By the way, the weather did hold, but went to rain during the last hour of testing.
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Joined: August 21st, 2013, 3:31 pm

June 13th, 2015, 11:21 pm #15

First off from reading your post, assume you do not have a "machine rest". When testing loads like you are doing to really take the human error out of it & this is very valuable tool to have. Not having that, my humble opinion if you can opt for the 1:14 bbl. Stick with the .356 diameter bullet. 2.9 Vit 310 in my opinion little hot with a HBWC, but a hard cast bullet should work fine. Try dropping the charge to 2.6 and see what happens at the 50.
How deep are you seating the bullets? what crimp? Refer back to older posts from others for their suggestions. Make sure all the cyls ranges to bbl center bore when it locks up to fire. Do you have a range rod setup? With the 686 try some 158 grain SWC's too.
Big factor is quality of the bbl you have on the gun. I have had guns I thought should have shot great and didn't because the bbl was poor quality. Is it a first class air gauged bore with good lands and groves. Makes a difference for a competition gun. W
When you slugged it, did bullet go thru smoothly or "jump" especially at the area that screws into the frame?
Just some thoughts.
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Joined: November 5th, 2014, 6:52 pm

June 15th, 2015, 3:25 pm #16

Best of luck Dave. It's summer there so all should be good, shouldn't it

Winter and 27 here, will just have to contend with blue skies. Range time for me this weekend too, need work at 50.

cheers
Hi Tony

Nothing to do with my leading etc but is that 27F or 27C. If its winter there, are you down under Oz or NZ?.
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Joined: November 5th, 2014, 6:52 pm

June 16th, 2015, 9:28 pm #17

First off from reading your post, assume you do not have a "machine rest". When testing loads like you are doing to really take the human error out of it & this is very valuable tool to have. Not having that, my humble opinion if you can opt for the 1:14 bbl. Stick with the .356 diameter bullet. 2.9 Vit 310 in my opinion little hot with a HBWC, but a hard cast bullet should work fine. Try dropping the charge to 2.6 and see what happens at the 50.
How deep are you seating the bullets? what crimp? Refer back to older posts from others for their suggestions. Make sure all the cyls ranges to bbl center bore when it locks up to fire. Do you have a range rod setup? With the 686 try some 158 grain SWC's too.
Big factor is quality of the bbl you have on the gun. I have had guns I thought should have shot great and didn't because the bbl was poor quality. Is it a first class air gauged bore with good lands and groves. Makes a difference for a competition gun. W
When you slugged it, did bullet go thru smoothly or "jump" especially at the area that screws into the frame?
Just some thoughts.
The swaged projectiles I have been using are 8BNH. Are these too soft. The others I use are hard cast. Any comments?
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Joined: August 28th, 2013, 9:41 pm

February 5th, 2016, 3:25 pm #18

Bump
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Joined: November 5th, 2014, 6:52 pm

March 9th, 2016, 10:34 am #19

Hi All

Returning back to my original post last year, I have solved the problem. The barrel was too tight ie .3545 plus the neck of the barrel where it passes through the frame was even tighter.

The barrel has been junked in favour of an old Donnelly I had lying around for 20yrs. Anyone heard of Donnelly?

Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

Cheers

Dave
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JB
JB

March 9th, 2016, 9:47 pm #20

Never heard of Donnelly.
If you have a newer gun that is not a pinned bbl, might have the threads cut on a taper and this possibly could cause a crush point(tight spot you noted) where it screws into the frame. And possibly threads on the old bbl not compatible to the threads in your frame. Just a thought to have checked out.
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