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stronzix
Paneristi
stronzix
Paneristi
Joined: October 1st, 2015, 4:58 pm

December 5th, 2017, 5:53 pm #21

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
Panerai was in..

I just bought mine last week and should be delivered this week

I am not a Nazi, nor I support what they did, however, mixing the watch with their history is "nonsensical".
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RaulBR18
Paneristi
RaulBR18
Paneristi
Joined: April 1st, 2015, 2:29 pm

December 5th, 2017, 7:28 pm #22

Guys,

What would be the problem discussing a piece of a beloved brand?
Just because this is clearly a mistake release, we can't criticise? Businesswise, can't understand for sure! Where's the manager?

You Guys afraid of "loosing" the brand or support of the community if you open your mind and see from a different prisma that, historicaly, this one became a Nazi watch and should be left at that time in terms of production?

I certainly tried to open my mind about this beautiful!!! watch, but there is no reason for the reissue or buying.

Anonymus dial by a not proud producer at the time.

cheers.
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peezie
Paneristi
peezie
Paneristi
Joined: August 22nd, 2008, 4:37 pm

December 5th, 2017, 9:37 pm #23

A watch is a time-telling instrument...

If you relate an ideology with the watch then it's a belief of your own choice.
We don't discuss conscience but rather a watch passion we shared, in my
humble opinion.

There are tons of watches brands that are worn during war, Seikoshas by Pearl Harbor
Japanese kamikaze bombers, IWC by allied bomber pilots and other novelties as well like
Leica cameras documenting war, Canon, Nikon, mention military shoes, fatigues, even canteen
water bottle. You relate each of them with sentiments and ideologies then we have
ourselves a soap-opera instead.

It's purely subjective rather than objective. I would rather stick with the later.
TVs were top-flight for years. Also, they made most of the engines used in Japanese dive bombers. Industry and politics are too intermingled to worry about it. It's just way too slippery a slope.
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peezie
Paneristi
peezie
Paneristi
Joined: August 22nd, 2008, 4:37 pm

December 5th, 2017, 9:40 pm #24

The complaints of all non-Paneristi for Panerai watches is that all the references look alike.

Is a sterile dial so bad for you?
There may have leaked some photos.
Why do you insist on this?
Do you believe that Panerai recreated this on purpose to make some connection with the past and the WWII?
I believe it was bad timing.

It is just a watch.
Should never be concerned with the PC politics of the time. They're usually ill-informed, emotional and pass over time.
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peezie
Paneristi
peezie
Paneristi
Joined: August 22nd, 2008, 4:37 pm

December 5th, 2017, 9:42 pm #25

Guys,

What would be the problem discussing a piece of a beloved brand?
Just because this is clearly a mistake release, we can't criticise? Businesswise, can't understand for sure! Where's the manager?

You Guys afraid of "loosing" the brand or support of the community if you open your mind and see from a different prisma that, historicaly, this one became a Nazi watch and should be left at that time in terms of production?

I certainly tried to open my mind about this beautiful!!! watch, but there is no reason for the reissue or buying.

Anonymus dial by a not proud producer at the time.

cheers.
is that most might look at that and see it as a fake LOL
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stronzix
Paneristi
stronzix
Paneristi
Joined: October 1st, 2015, 4:58 pm

December 5th, 2017, 10:10 pm #26

Guys,

What would be the problem discussing a piece of a beloved brand?
Just because this is clearly a mistake release, we can't criticise? Businesswise, can't understand for sure! Where's the manager?

You Guys afraid of "loosing" the brand or support of the community if you open your mind and see from a different prisma that, historicaly, this one became a Nazi watch and should be left at that time in terms of production?

I certainly tried to open my mind about this beautiful!!! watch, but there is no reason for the reissue or buying.

Anonymus dial by a not proud producer at the time.

cheers.
I am open to watch you have to say...

However, I believe you are judging the brand on the surface of "few" known details, but are completely ignorant about circumstances and facts of Italy at that time.

Keep in mind that the Italians were forced to obey a fascist regime, of which, you would probably not be educated on.. unless you lived there.

Cheers.
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tarichar
Paneristi
tarichar
Paneristi
Joined: July 11th, 2013, 2:36 pm

December 6th, 2017, 2:07 am #27

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
but it would look better with a date and GMT hand
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Pam673
Paneristi
Pam673
Paneristi
Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:48 am

December 6th, 2017, 5:09 am #28

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
My goodness. The 721 must be the most controversial release from Panerai since the actual 3646 Kampfschwimmer.

I guess there are a number of ways to look at the motivation of this watch. My personal take would be to look at it as Panerai wanted to reissue a 3636 type D for their passionate watch collectors who likes the simplicity of the anonymous dial.

From that angle it is very clear that the motivation was never intended to glorify Nazi Germany in anyway as Panerai themselves were also a victim during that difficult period.

Some people might take offence in that Panerai would now reissue a historical watch that has close ties with Nazi soldiers. I understand that and there is no way to get around it as people have different backgrounds, ideologies, believes and different life experiences.

Therefore I believe that it is absolutely reasonable for some people to not like the watch. Conversely I believe that it is also absolutely reasonable for someone people who will appreciate the reissue of this historical model as it was a watch that Panerai did released and used in battlefields during WW2.

For people who do not like the history of this watch they obviously will denounce it completely but I hope that they have the heart to embrace other motivations of this watch and understand why some people might appreciate the watch.


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Pam009T
Paneristi
Pam009T
Paneristi
Joined: October 28th, 2013, 4:27 pm

December 6th, 2017, 6:31 am #29

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
Can not we just find it beautiful, simple, refined?
I don't understand this controversy which is for me either too late or just for the pleasure of the controversy, Officine Panerai manufactures for many years historical model reproductions (Radiomir) that were used by swimmers of Italian and German fights of the second world war, we all know it.
It's reductive to assimilate the "watche" object to people who have used it even if the historical context is undeniable. These are historical models.
If the mere fact of equipping it with a sterile dial makes it morally importable, please explain me.
Sorry for my french/english
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SashaSh
Paneristi
SashaSh
Paneristi
Joined: June 13th, 2016, 9:23 pm

December 6th, 2017, 5:55 pm #30

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
Without going too deep into the morality of war and all that is associated with it, we definitely cannot deny the emotional sensitivity that the most devastating war in human history brings about. Even three generations after it took place. The further you are removed from these events the easier it is to be objective. As someone of Soviet Jewish ancestry, I struggle throughout my life to rectify the fact that present day Germans are not responsible for what happened over 70 years ago, but then again two thirds of my family perished during that war and everyone I grew up with in the Soviet Union was directly or indirectly affected by the Nazi Germany's actions.

I do not want to bring this struggle on to anyone, but merely mention the sensitivity that is associated with bringing an object (a beautiful piece by the way) back to life that is associated with dark history. This is a decision by the Panerai team that should have been considered and weighted and I feel there is definitely merit to bring this argument as a result. Not the cold metal, but the symbolism it represents should be understood with a bit more empathy. And so I echo the question - why this model?!





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peezie
Paneristi
peezie
Paneristi
Joined: August 22nd, 2008, 4:37 pm

December 6th, 2017, 7:11 pm #31

Why any model? Anything and everything Panerai does or has done has references, direct or indirect, to Italians riding on Ace and Gary submarines bombing Allied vessels. This seemed to be OK up until this particular infraction because at some point, they did so on the Allies' behalf? Help me out here.

Look, the issue here is that these watches are historically accurate, blended with today's market realities. The tough part about history (and also what makes it so fascinating) is that it's not pretty, events are morally vague, and details occupy grey areas. To me, no other watch takes as ballsy an approach with a reissue such as this. I find it bold and worthy of respect. Why? Primarily because it deliberately eschews today's virtue signaling mentality permeating society. They took an historically significant piece, waited until the "anti-Nazi" astroturfing reached a fever pitch -- THEN sprung it on us. Taking this unflinching, non-revisionist approach to history is exactly why, if for no other reason, this piece should be respected and sought after. To my knowledge, no other brand has attempted such a statement.

In the case of Soviets, they're responsible for the deaths of millions. Same with the Chinese, same with Nazis, same with many regimes, all for different reasons. Why we choose to single out one group speaks more to our sense of what we "should" view as the penultimate evil, rather than just taking a step back. Inanimate objects have nothing to do with the actions of the user, and moral outrage often stems from another unrelated agenda.

Don't like the watch? Don't buy it.
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Pam009T
Paneristi
Pam009T
Paneristi
Joined: October 28th, 2013, 4:27 pm

December 6th, 2017, 8:07 pm #32

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
I understand the emotion that can bring about the reminiscence of a period and I'm very aware of the horror of the Holocaust, but I can't make the difference in this section between the real questioning and the desire of some to make buzz on the internet.

If I want to be as precise but without any cynicism, as far as the Second World War is concerned and to my knowledge the Kampfschwimmers were of course part of the 3rd Reich, but I don't think that these troops of elite have been much blamed in the exaction against the Jewish people, I think they were doing operations against allied ships without distinction of religion. I think that as a descendant of a people called "allied" I should in this case be shocked, which is not the case.

I repeat my question: Why this controversy now, many re-editions Panerai were already similar to the models of the second world war:
First Special Edition Radiomir PAM00021 in 1997 is a 1938 Radiomir Re-Edition and for all Panerai iconography resumes the theme of combat watches (1940s unbranded sandwich dials in all catalogs).
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RossRoss1
Paneristi
RossRoss1
Paneristi
Joined: February 26th, 2009, 3:27 pm

December 6th, 2017, 8:27 pm #33

Without going too deep into the morality of war and all that is associated with it, we definitely cannot deny the emotional sensitivity that the most devastating war in human history brings about. Even three generations after it took place. The further you are removed from these events the easier it is to be objective. As someone of Soviet Jewish ancestry, I struggle throughout my life to rectify the fact that present day Germans are not responsible for what happened over 70 years ago, but then again two thirds of my family perished during that war and everyone I grew up with in the Soviet Union was directly or indirectly affected by the Nazi Germany's actions.

I do not want to bring this struggle on to anyone, but merely mention the sensitivity that is associated with bringing an object (a beautiful piece by the way) back to life that is associated with dark history. This is a decision by the Panerai team that should have been considered and weighted and I feel there is definitely merit to bring this argument as a result. Not the cold metal, but the symbolism it represents should be understood with a bit more empathy. And so I echo the question - why this model?!




JEEZ!
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mirador
Paneristi
mirador
Paneristi
Joined: May 29th, 2007, 6:41 am

December 7th, 2017, 7:41 am #34

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
when Panerai drop the 721 in a Limited Edition of 50 units with NOS Cortébert / Rolex 618

That’ll focus people’s minds 💥



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fletch01
Paneristi
fletch01
Paneristi
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 9:42 am

December 7th, 2017, 9:50 am #35

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
is very nice and close to the original only small different things are the different 6 and 9 and the longer hour hand



the clean dial is the same like the 448 or the 249...

here a close up between 448 to 3646 Cali



but the case of the 448 is thicker cause the 3646 Cali is a painted Dial




To say that this is a Nazi watch is very very sad and wrong and even not fair. The watch has no change to take a choice which will wear it and nobody was killed by a watch.
And not all soldier (also german kampfschwimmer) was Nazis. They had made the service by his country when the country said they has to do (otherwise their will be killed), they has no chance. Every war has bad and dark sides and not only all german Soldier was Nazis.

Not all American Soldier from the Vietnam War are guilty for the My Lai Massacre


I will see you in this time when you has the decision between service or die and there are so much more watches which was worn by bad people (Che Guevara - i know a lot of people which don't like him cause he killed people)




...this is the sight if you will bring bad Karma inside the community. If you look positiv you say the 3646 Kampfschwimmer watch is the first issued Tool Diving watch. The mother of all diving watches which were used as tool like Milsubs, like Tudor MN, like Tudor Ci, like Comex etc.




now you has the choice to be positiv or negativ

i like old diving watches together with all the stories behind and the development of Divingwatches and this starts with the 3646

This are my two cents

Thank you
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niellaccio
Paneristi
Joined: May 27th, 2007, 7:46 pm

December 7th, 2017, 10:27 am #36

love u Marcus!
cheers
niellaccio
daniele from italy

Niellaccio: Sounds good!!
<img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/k2fczs.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/xo05k8.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i40.tinypic.com/24niefs.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/33cn66a.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i41.tinypic.com/axyamp.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/2n880hi.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i42.tinypic.com/2jbpp8y.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><img src="http://i59.tinypic.com/2cihh0x.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
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Pam009T
Paneristi
Pam009T
Paneristi
Joined: October 28th, 2013, 4:27 pm

December 7th, 2017, 12:32 pm #37

Who would buy a Nazi watch? Not Me!!
I’m sure Panerai didn’t support or provided timepieces to the Nazis.
But why reproduce the very specific one used by them?
Absolutely agree with Marcus
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jhb24
Paneristi
jhb24
Paneristi
Joined: July 16th, 2010, 7:36 pm

December 7th, 2017, 12:57 pm #38

is very nice and close to the original only small different things are the different 6 and 9 and the longer hour hand



the clean dial is the same like the 448 or the 249...

here a close up between 448 to 3646 Cali



but the case of the 448 is thicker cause the 3646 Cali is a painted Dial




To say that this is a Nazi watch is very very sad and wrong and even not fair. The watch has no change to take a choice which will wear it and nobody was killed by a watch.
And not all soldier (also german kampfschwimmer) was Nazis. They had made the service by his country when the country said they has to do (otherwise their will be killed), they has no chance. Every war has bad and dark sides and not only all german Soldier was Nazis.

Not all American Soldier from the Vietnam War are guilty for the My Lai Massacre


I will see you in this time when you has the decision between service or die and there are so much more watches which was worn by bad people (Che Guevara - i know a lot of people which don't like him cause he killed people)




...this is the sight if you will bring bad Karma inside the community. If you look positiv you say the 3646 Kampfschwimmer watch is the first issued Tool Diving watch. The mother of all diving watches which were used as tool like Milsubs, like Tudor MN, like Tudor Ci, like Comex etc.




now you has the choice to be positiv or negativ

i like old diving watches together with all the stories behind and the development of Divingwatches and this starts with the 3646

This are my two cents

Thank you
Well said Marcus!
JB in Shaker
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fullcourt1
Paneristi
Joined: July 16th, 2010, 9:02 pm

December 7th, 2017, 1:00 pm #39

is very nice and close to the original only small different things are the different 6 and 9 and the longer hour hand



the clean dial is the same like the 448 or the 249...

here a close up between 448 to 3646 Cali



but the case of the 448 is thicker cause the 3646 Cali is a painted Dial




To say that this is a Nazi watch is very very sad and wrong and even not fair. The watch has no change to take a choice which will wear it and nobody was killed by a watch.
And not all soldier (also german kampfschwimmer) was Nazis. They had made the service by his country when the country said they has to do (otherwise their will be killed), they has no chance. Every war has bad and dark sides and not only all german Soldier was Nazis.

Not all American Soldier from the Vietnam War are guilty for the My Lai Massacre


I will see you in this time when you has the decision between service or die and there are so much more watches which was worn by bad people (Che Guevara - i know a lot of people which don't like him cause he killed people)




...this is the sight if you will bring bad Karma inside the community. If you look positiv you say the 3646 Kampfschwimmer watch is the first issued Tool Diving watch. The mother of all diving watches which were used as tool like Milsubs, like Tudor MN, like Tudor Ci, like Comex etc.




now you has the choice to be positiv or negativ

i like old diving watches together with all the stories behind and the development of Divingwatches and this starts with the 3646

This are my two cents

Thank you
^^^^this
dp
just living the dream
chicago, usa
more than just a watch
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micah372
Paneristi
micah372
Paneristi
Joined: March 3rd, 2012, 1:55 am

December 7th, 2017, 3:18 pm #40

is very nice and close to the original only small different things are the different 6 and 9 and the longer hour hand



the clean dial is the same like the 448 or the 249...

here a close up between 448 to 3646 Cali



but the case of the 448 is thicker cause the 3646 Cali is a painted Dial




To say that this is a Nazi watch is very very sad and wrong and even not fair. The watch has no change to take a choice which will wear it and nobody was killed by a watch.
And not all soldier (also german kampfschwimmer) was Nazis. They had made the service by his country when the country said they has to do (otherwise their will be killed), they has no chance. Every war has bad and dark sides and not only all german Soldier was Nazis.

Not all American Soldier from the Vietnam War are guilty for the My Lai Massacre


I will see you in this time when you has the decision between service or die and there are so much more watches which was worn by bad people (Che Guevara - i know a lot of people which don't like him cause he killed people)




...this is the sight if you will bring bad Karma inside the community. If you look positiv you say the 3646 Kampfschwimmer watch is the first issued Tool Diving watch. The mother of all diving watches which were used as tool like Milsubs, like Tudor MN, like Tudor Ci, like Comex etc.




now you has the choice to be positiv or negativ

i like old diving watches together with all the stories behind and the development of Divingwatches and this starts with the 3646

This are my two cents

Thank you
Well said. [nt]
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