Great new forum! My first question is about the 292 case...

Great new forum! My first question is about the 292 case...

micah249
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micah249
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Joined: February 14th, 2008, 6:38 pm

April 16th, 2009, 9:39 pm #1

I've heard that the ceramic case of the 292 is milled, not cast, anyone know if this is true?

It's my understanding that casting of ceramic cases is more common than milling, and that the fact that Panerai mills these cases is one of the reasons for slow production volume.

Any insights appreciated!
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gfriedell
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Joined: January 27th, 2005, 3:20 pm

April 16th, 2009, 9:57 pm #2


One is milling and one is more of a pressure process. I guess it could be considered like forging.

The Luminors and the radiomirs use different methods. I'll try to find out which is which.
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micah249
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micah249
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Joined: February 14th, 2008, 6:38 pm

April 16th, 2009, 10:07 pm #3

Yes, now I remember it was described to me exactly like that... most ceramic cases are made by putting the ceramic mixture into a cast in powder form and tons upon tons of pressure is applied, thus creating the case.

I'd heard (can't remember where) that Panerai mills the cases, which for whatever reason makes for a much stronger case.

Thanks for looking into this, I'm getting more and more curious about the 292 case as I wear mine, it's great because it always looks brand spanking new, no scratches, dings, scuff marks etc, just always perfectly clean and black :)

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hkgweilo
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hkgweilo
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Joined: March 3rd, 2006, 5:46 am

April 16th, 2009, 11:17 pm #4

One is milling and one is more of a pressure process. I guess it could be considered like forging.

The Luminors and the radiomirs use different methods. I'll try to find out which is which.
The rads are milled while the 317 is 'pressed' (or whatever you call it). This process is similar to how IWC is making their cases. Gary hopefully can find more details from his contacts.

As I still haven't been able to hold a 317 in my hands, I can't personally tell you how one process actually looks and feels from the other.

I'm with you though Micah, I have been very impressed by the quality and feel of the 292 case.

Eric
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John_E_Mac
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John_E_Mac
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Joined: December 27th, 2008, 2:53 am

April 16th, 2009, 11:30 pm #5

I've heard that the ceramic case of the 292 is milled, not cast, anyone know if this is true?

It's my understanding that casting of ceramic cases is more common than milling, and that the fact that Panerai mills these cases is one of the reasons for slow production volume.

Any insights appreciated!
Micah,
Here is a previous post that may be helpful...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/t ... 7/Ceramics
Sincerely,
Johnny Mac
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micah249
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micah249
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April 16th, 2009, 11:37 pm #6

That's a great link, now I'm interested to know not only how the Rad and luminor cases are made, but also if the zirconia used by Panerai is high grade or low grade.

Considering the price of the watch vs. the cost of the movement and other non-case parts, I would hope the answer is "high grade"

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John_E_Mac
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John_E_Mac
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Joined: December 27th, 2008, 2:53 am

April 16th, 2009, 11:46 pm #7

I've heard that the ceramic case of the 292 is milled, not cast, anyone know if this is true?

It's my understanding that casting of ceramic cases is more common than milling, and that the fact that Panerai mills these cases is one of the reasons for slow production volume.

Any insights appreciated!
Micah,
Here is a link to Panerai's website:
http://www.panerai.com/s_page.xpd?id_ca ... d_lingua=2
It specifically talks about the Ceramic Radiomir case manufacturing process in the third paragraph.
Sincerely,
Johnny Mac
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porsche-964
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Joined: March 29th, 2006, 11:56 pm

April 17th, 2009, 12:10 am #8

I've heard that the ceramic case of the 292 is milled, not cast, anyone know if this is true?

It's my understanding that casting of ceramic cases is more common than milling, and that the fact that Panerai mills these cases is one of the reasons for slow production volume.

Any insights appreciated!
I don't know the process that Panerai uses, but below is an example of how Ferrari casts their engine blocks.

The entire video is interesting, but the relevant section is from about 50 seconds in to about the 2 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRKL6hDng-Q

They use sand to form the mold. It can be precisely shaped to get the necessary curves and edges that an engine requires. Once the mold is assembled, molten metal is poured into the cast. Once the metal hardens and the cast removed, you will see them taking X-rays of the engine block---this is to check for any voids or fractures that may have formed during the cast that would prove fatal for a high performance engine.





Jeremy (aka Mr. Socko)
Northeast Florida
Hang Tough Hammer!!!

Time is what we want most, but...what we use worst.
~William Penn

Watches are so named as a reminder -- if you don't watch carefully what you do with your time, it will slip away from you.
~Drew Sirtors

There is one kind of robber whom the law does not strike at, and who steals what is most precious to men: time.
~Napoleon I, Maxims, 1815


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hkgweilo
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hkgweilo
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Joined: March 3rd, 2006, 5:46 am

April 17th, 2009, 2:28 am #9


The rads are milled while the 317 is 'pressed' (or whatever you call it). This process is similar to how IWC is making their cases. Gary hopefully can find more details from his contacts.

As I still haven't been able to hold a 317 in my hands, I can't personally tell you how one process actually looks and feels from the other.

I'm with you though Micah, I have been very impressed by the quality and feel of the 292 case.

Eric
ah...ok, the correct methods would be pressed (not milled) vs cast....
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micah249
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micah249
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Joined: February 14th, 2008, 6:38 pm

April 17th, 2009, 2:40 am #10

Micah,
Here is a link to Panerai's website:
http://www.panerai.com/s_page.xpd?id_ca ... d_lingua=2
It specifically talks about the Ceramic Radiomir case manufacturing process in the third paragraph.
Sincerely,
Johnny Mac
you know what "isostatic pressure" is.

"it is moulded from powder using a process of isostatic pressure (instead of being cast as is the normal practice). "

Now I'm wondering what the difference is between "isostatic pressure" and the "normal practice" of casting.

The more you know the more you know what you don't know

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gfriedell
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Joined: January 27th, 2005, 3:20 pm

April 17th, 2009, 6:53 pm #11

I've heard that the ceramic case of the 292 is milled, not cast, anyone know if this is true?

It's my understanding that casting of ceramic cases is more common than milling, and that the fact that Panerai mills these cases is one of the reasons for slow production volume.

Any insights appreciated!
Both cases are made from the same basic materials. The composition is 80% Zirconia powder and 20% Paraffin binder. This mixture would be a greenish color so a color pigment is added to make the black color. The 317 is made in a 7 step process. Because of the complex shape of the middle case, the PAM317 undergoes
an injection molding process. It would not be possible to make this case the same way as the 292 because of the middle case.

The first step is the preparation of the powder.

The second step is the injection of the mixture into the mold itself. At this point the case blank is actually 58mm!

The 3rd step is the machining of the middle case and other components.

After this the binding material is removed.

The 5th step involves the sintering of the ceramic. This is where the original case size shrinks down to the 44mm case size,
and where the completion of the ceramic hardness is completed. The sintering is essentially heating up the different components. All of the
components shrink dramatically during this process.

After this the final grinding process occurs in the hard stage of the ceramic case.

The last step is the finishing.

The 292 is made differently, It starts with a ceramic blank. I believe it uses more of a grinding and milling process similar to how a steel or gold watch is produced.

Here is some information on Ceramic Sintering from Wikipedia:

Ceramic sintering

Sintering is part of the firing process used in the manufacture of pottery and other ceramic objects. Some ceramic raw materials have a lower affinity for water and a lower plasticity index than clay, requiring organic additives in the stages before sintering. The general procedure of creating ceramic objects via sintering of powders includes:
Mixing water, binder, deflocculant, and unfired ceramic powder to form a slurry
Spray-drying the slurry
Putting the spray dried powder into a mold and pressing it to form a green body (an unsintered ceramic item)
Heating the green body at low temperature to burn off the binder
Sintering at a high temperature to fuse the ceramic particles together
All the characteristic temperatures associated to phases transformation, glass transitions and melting points, occurring during a sinterisation cycle of a particular ceramics formulation (i.e. tails and frits) can be easily obtained by observing the expansion-temperature curves during optical dilatometer thermal analysis. In fact, sinterisation is associated to a remarkable shrinkage of the material because glass phases flow, once their transition temperature is reached, and start consolidating the powdery structure and considerably reducing the porosity of the material.
There are two types of sintering: with pressure (also known as hot pressing), and without pressure. Pressureless sintering is possible with graded metal-ceramic composites, with a nanoparticle sintering aid and bulk molding technology. A variant used for 3D shapes is called hot isostatic pressing.

***** I would like to thank Chad from the BH boutique for his tremendous assistance filling in the missing pieces of information. Chad always goes the extra mile
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micah249
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micah249
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Joined: February 14th, 2008, 6:38 pm

April 17th, 2009, 8:07 pm #12

nt

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flcrx
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flcrx
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Joined: November 11th, 2006, 3:26 am

April 18th, 2009, 5:27 am #13

I've heard that the ceramic case of the 292 is milled, not cast, anyone know if this is true?

It's my understanding that casting of ceramic cases is more common than milling, and that the fact that Panerai mills these cases is one of the reasons for slow production volume.

Any insights appreciated!
@Micah, very interesting question!!!

@Gary, very interesting to now!!!


thnxs guys...


grtz from Antwerp...
Frank.

Panerai... Solo la storia al polso.... gli portiamo con passione.....
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