pine inner bark - problems with tannins

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pine inner bark - problems with tannins

galgo
Registered User
Joined: 13 May 2011, 10:11

16 Oct 2017, 10:35 #1

Some weeks ago, i became again interested in pine inner bark as carbohydrates source after watching a youtuber scrape the inner bark from the tree in autumn. I have always done it when it is easy and you dont need scraping.

Scandinavian Famine Food. Survival Bark Bread. - YouTube


I have eaten the raw inner bark of Pinus Silvestris, and tried (unsuccessfully) to leach out the tannins by boiling it. I'm interested in the consumption of pine inner bark in the long term.
The thing is i have been doing some serious research and i dont manage to get content with what i find. I can see everywhere recipes that include drying, boiling, frying, baking... but i still dont understand how the tannins are "inactivated" in the process.
Just worried about tannings binding to proteins, interfering about iron methabolism, f#*%ing up your liver...

So, here is what i have found so far:

"tannin-containing Pine Bark has negative impact on fiber, lignin, and protein digestibility, but positively impacted on N-balance."
SOURCE: The effects of tannins-containing ground pine bark diet upon nutrient digestion, nitrogen balance, and mineral retention in meat goats.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?te ... +digestion

Goats are known for eating anything. If raw inner bark is not good for them, it certainly isn't good for us.



 "The most promising species for a bark tannin extraction was found to be larch, while the least encouraging results were detected in pine."
SOURCE: Characterization of condensed tannins and carbohydrates in hot water bark extracts of European softwood species
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2215300984
https://www.bioportfolio.com/resources/ ... ts-of.html

So, just adding warm water to the inner bark, carbohydrates are released the same as tannins. And pine is the one releasing  more carbs and less tannins.  Then,I assume that if you would apply to inner bark the same treatment as to acorns (warm/hot leaching with changes of water)  some of  the good stuff  would go in the water.


"rich Sami families with many tamed reindeer and large milk production normally collected the largest quantities of Scots pine inner bark for food, which is understandable as inner bark was often mixed into milk"
SOURCE: Tree bark — Nordic Food Lab
http://nordicfoodlab.org/blog/2015/11/24/tree-bark

I guess you mix inner bark with milk for the same purpose as   you do with tea.
I wonder if native Americans also mixed it with something protein rich (some tribes also ate pine inner bark).

Does anybody know if any tribe of native americans used to mix it with some proteins too?


"Generally, results suggest pine bark extract fractions may be readily processed at temperatures below 200°C if co-extracted polysaccharides contents are minimized. Those extracts possessing greater carbohydrate content and lower tannin purity tend to have decreased thermal stability. The initial onset temperature for degradation of relatively crude extracts with high proportions of carbohydrate contents were relatively low (ca. 150°C), ..."
SOURCE: Thermal Degradation of Condensed Tannins from Radiata Pine Bark: Journal of Wood Chemistry and Technology: Vol 29, No 4
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 0903165671

If "unstable tannins" would mean rendering them  harmless, then baking bread with the inner bark could be the most healthy way of preparing it.



My conclusions: Maybe the most healthy way of preparing pine inner bark for human consumption would be as follows:
1. Dry and grind to maximize surface.
2. Mix with some protein source (milk, eggs?..). Let it react for some time.
3. Mix extra ingredients and bake.

Does any of this make any sense?
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Robson Valley
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 00:27

16 Oct 2017, 15:36 #2

Prior to european contact, some estimates put the bison ( both plains and woodland) population at 60,000,000.
We know they harvested deer, moose, elk, rabbits, birds and both mountain goats & sheep, here in the west.
The standard reserves were made up as pemmican, many claims for many recipes, essentially fat and dried meat.
This makes me think that their dietary protein needs were well met. 

I've found it rare to read any reference to harvesting inner barks as a staple food.  Very awkward to recover with stone tools at -30C.

As for carbs, sugars, most records show a dependency on dried berries and other fruits such as the Pacific crabapple.

Trying to feed a great plains native village from September through April/May must have required some serious rationing from time to time.
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Quillsnkiko
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 08:25

16 Oct 2017, 19:09 #3

Hmmm...you've not read the references in Lewis & Clarks Journals ....RV? They mention it once they got on the west side of the mountains...saying many pine trees were stripped and they could easily see where it was done in hard times. I don't think that there were many Buffalo on the west side of the mountains..at least in 1804....05 and they comment on the lack of game in many places. The tribe Sacagawea was from were very destitute  really...as far as food went. They could not travel east of the moutains to the plains because of warlike tribes that would have annilated them. ( so much for Indians being peaceful and loving in the early years )  So they had to stay in their own country that was pretty scarce at times for game.

That is a interesting piece on the inner bark of pine...galgo. I think many cultures utilized such things in days gone by.

Its known popular bark will keep horses in very good shape. I would imagine that the inner bark of maples, box elder and popular could be used as well and might taste better. Anyone want to do some experimenting? 

From hainving goats for many years and living next to a woods...I used to cut brush & branches for my goats. They LOVE- LOVE  green Giant ragweed and lambquarters. So do horses .They did not like sumac much. Maple branches they will eat the leaves off and strip some of the bark. They will eat oak leaves as well. The woods next to me was river maple , oak & boxelder. A lot of sumac mixed in blackberry bushes ,plum trees and wild cherry in the areas that did not have big oaks. They would eat the black berry bushes to but I did not cut them down much. In a winter...of big snow& extreme cold...78-79...the rabbits ate the black berry bushes down below the snow depth..they actually dug down and kept eating. That kind of did in a lot of the black berry bushes. I think it was their time to go as Sumac and other small trees were making too much shade by then. Succession.     Quills



Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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Quest for fire
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Joined: 22 Mar 2007, 06:19

16 Oct 2017, 19:52 #4

The only historical references I know of for starvation foods are the colonists sawing up birch trees into sawdust then boiling repeatedly. There is more to it but that is what I remember. There is also a recipé for something called Blue Sky and Sinkers.
That involves a pinch of flour dropped into a pint of boiling water.
I think the flour itself congealed,cooked and sank leaving a blue
haze on the surface. Hence the name Blue Sky and Sinkers.
Again this is only what I remember.

I admire your enthusiasm.

Quest for Fire
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Robson Valley
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 00:27

16 Oct 2017, 19:56 #5

Sorry, I wasn't thinking of eastern natives.  Maybe on the plains in the south, pickings were pretty slim.
The Hudson's Bay Company records that the bison pemmican quota for Rocky Mountain House was 44,000 lbs per year.
They made that and bagged it in bison hides in 9 days.  Nine days.

The BIG THING here in the west slope is the annual salmon harvest.  Thousands.  Oolican oil, too.
There's the calories for cold weather.  Even as many hundreds of miles upstream and inland to where I live.
This is Simpcw hunting territory from before they were forcibly removed to a southern rez ( they had to walk).
This fall, they are back hunting traditional land.  Jasper National Park was not established until 1907 so the
Simpcw got the boot over there, too.

On the coast itself, nobody would starve with the beaches exposed 2X daily from the tides.
Haida still cultivate clams and oysters in marine beds of their ancestor's construction.
They still cultivate their family kitchen gardens.

I've done it = a knife and a lemon and a 30 minute walk at low tide.  Eat some oysters.
Turn around and do the same.  Lunch hour is over.
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Quillsnkiko
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 08:25

16 Oct 2017, 20:51 #6

yes Lewis & Clark talk a lot about salmon, bales of it. They were not too enthusiastic about the dried stuff some of htose native made.
 They commented on how dirty the natives were. And lack of much cleanliness in food preparation.  Lots of roots....to. I guess when your starving..anything to fill the belly will work. They talk about how they cooked flour into a thin gruel like to with water a lot. They ate most anything they could catch or kill. Things most people now days do not think of as a food source. Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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Robson Valley
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 00:27

16 Oct 2017, 21:02 #7

Flour.  Possibly from maize?  Corn flour?  Not up here, we don't get the degree days.

I take a dim view of the european judgements applied to First Nations.  L&C could run home.
How much of their critique was a posture based on European standards?
Read Franz Boas from the Jessup Expedition.  Much more honest according to tribal elders.

I've been in Heiltsuk and Coast Tsimshian salmon smoke houses.  Magnificent sights.
They string the clams, mussels and oysters on cedar bark cords, by the hundreds, and smoke those too.
Basically, it looks like a 1-car garage these days, but with a dirt covered floor and a smokey fire in the middle.
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Quillsnkiko
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 08:25

16 Oct 2017, 22:41 #8

i think the flour was from the roots they treded with the Indians for. The word couswas used if I remember right...I canpt think of the root....off hand.CRS ya know?  They commented on several different tribes  cleanliness...and the Indians on the west coast....Oregon etc...seemed to be the ones they said were  uncleanly. I read another  2 volumes of books written by a man ...from England... George Featherstonhaugh is his  name. A Canoe Voyage up the Minnay Sotor.... good set of 2  books...back in the 1830's he canoes up the Mississippi river  where I now live on up the Winsconsin and onto the Fox river and others that dump into the Wisconsin. He comments on how dirty most of the white settlers were....in their persons and in their dwellings and habits. Some food habits were really gross. So Featherstonhaugh was a man from England...Upper class....and Lewis & Clark were more upper class as well..so thats a judgement they made and commented on at that point in time. Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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Robson Valley
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 00:27

17 Oct 2017, 01:08 #9

Our federal government made the same judgement. 
Confederation allowed them to begin the process of stamping out native society from coast to coast.
Residential schools with unrecorded deaths and violent punishments.
Incarceration for Potlach.
By their own admission, the Feds have labelled it as "Cultural Genocide."  And it still is.

For old ways, I'll take my advice from the elders. 
Through them, the art and culture and languages have begun a rebirth.
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Quest for fire
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Joined: 22 Mar 2007, 06:19

17 Oct 2017, 13:31 #10

Joseph T. Hallinan argues that "When something goes wrong...the natural tendency is to lay blame.  Others say "Fix the problem not the blame." "The past will be laid to rest when it is addressed."

I personally like what all three have to say without being overly fond of any of them.
People from my part of the world went to Standing Rock and I supported them in a small way.
As long as their method of protestation was peaceful. I supported the necessity for clean drinking water not anyone's political agenda. I have friends from many different places. Sometimes I sought them out and vice versa. Most of them are calm rational people. One among them told me that we would be better off living in small communities well spread out. He believed and I now believe that small communities can govern themselves better. That it is easier for the government to be held accountable. Un the end it is the will of the people that rules the land.

I told someone once that the world was round so that we could all stand
in a straight line around it pointing a finger of blame at the next person.
Eventually that finger will be pointed at ourselves.

I don't have all the answers or even know what questions should be asked.
We are all in this together. It behooves us to work together as well.

Quest for Fire

P.S. 

I seem to have made this thread drift without it being my intention to do so.
Out of respect for Galgo the person who started this thread I invite all concerned to start this drift
up again in the decidely off topic thread. That way our fervor is easier to contain if the need should arise.
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Robson Valley
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 00:27

17 Oct 2017, 15:56 #11

OK.
In the biology of trees, the thickest layer of living cells ( and nutrients) will occur in the late spring, when the sap begins to "flow."
I can't see a better nutritional value in a late season harvest when that living layer will be reduced to (theoretically) a layer of single cells
as every thing on either side (secondary phloem and secondary xylem) will have matured for the year's growth increment..
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Quillsnkiko
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 08:25

17 Oct 2017, 16:20 #12

I agree Quest.

In reference to galgos inquiry...I've never read anywhere exactly how  Native Americans ate the inner bark.I just know that it was done if you can believe the accounts of Europeans who went west in the early years.

My own personal opinion is if I were starving...the inner bark from pine....I know would upset my stomach. But folks back then were used to eating lots of very different things....and probably had cast Iron stomachs. Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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Robson Valley
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 00:27

17 Oct 2017, 19:16 #13

Here you go:

Xaadaa Gwaay gud gina k'aws.  Plants of Haida Gwaii  2010.  by Nancy Turner with many Haida elders in Skidegate and Massett.
I quote some phrases from page 89:

" The sweet juicy cambium and associated inner bark tissues of Sitka spruce, like those of hemlock, were scraped off the tree in mid-May and June, after a piece of bark had been removed , and were eaten raw. . . . . "

Emma Matthews: " They climb up the spruce tree, cut around it, peel the bark off.  When there's enough on the ground, they take the outer bark off.  You just swallow the juice though.. . . . . . put grease and sugar in it and chew it for a long time until all the juice comes off. . . ."

I'd do it just to set off the european arrogants into thinking that I was starving.  Reads like a treat to me.  I did correctly define the time frame.
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Quest for fire
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Joined: 22 Mar 2007, 06:19

18 Oct 2017, 13:07 #14

I had heard Xaadaa Gwaay before but never seen it spelled out.
Yes it does seem like a lot of work for a small reward. But a sweet tooth knows no bounds to the labor required to soothe it's ravenous appetite. Also I cannot see people who are starving climb up a tree.

Is there merit in what is proposed?
Maybe,maybe not but I salute enthusiasm and would aid it in all it's forms.
If it is misplaced,and I do not know if it is,I would guide the enthused in the proper direction.
I remember the Hawthorn incident during the Summer of 2017.
Did it work? I really don't think so but enthusiasm certainly wasn't lacking. 😉

Quest for Fire
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Robson Valley
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Joined: 24 Apr 2015, 00:27

18 Oct 2017, 15:21 #15

I'll guess that nutrition and adequate caloric content were issues everywhere inland except on the coast.
Salmon runs and the inter tidal zone were mainstays.

Harvesting pine cambium seems either a treat or an act of sheer desperation.
The Haida elders in my Plant book make no judgement at all.  I was hoping that
at least one would add some qualifying remarks but no, strictly objective.

Maybe some years, the salmon runs failed.  Probably not critical until late winter
as food supplies run out.  That could be 7 hundred miles from the coast.
Like up here at my place.

However, the value of clams, mussels and oysters was enough that the Haida (and I suspect many others)
actually constructed and managed artificial shellfish beds.

There's a Used Book store here in McBride.  Owner purchases estate sales, etc.  I decided to add a collection of First Nations references
to my library.  Wasn't long to see 25 titles, from Plants to Collected Legendary Beliefs.  I must go and glean her shop one day soon.
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Quest for fire
Registered User
Joined: 22 Mar 2007, 06:19

18 Oct 2017, 19:32 #16

The salmon run stops soon on the Restigouche(sp) river.
It is a long way from my house but my buddy told me of it.
He had a fly rod and wanted to travel there to try his luck.

The reason Restigouche sticks in my mind is I was temporarily assigned
to a ship of that name. It was there I learned the importance of measuring time.
I had to fill out a Log and it had to be precise.
Nowadays I prefer the Seasons to an alarm clock. 😉

Quest for Fire
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Quillsnkiko
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 08:25

27 Oct 2017, 01:15 #17

This is not specifically about pine inner bark, but perhaps some of the same principles apy to it as to these other barks.

https://arcadianabe.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... mbium.html

Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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Skaukraft
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Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 09:42

08 Nov 2017, 11:34 #18

Bark flour and bark bread has never anything than a mean to make the little food that was available to last a bit longer in hard times. It has never been a major part of the diet, neither amongst the samii nor amongst the non samii.
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DuxDawg
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Joined: 01 Dec 2013, 21:12

07 Dec 2017, 04:43 #19

Great thread Galgo. Some solid thinking and research there. 

Lonnie did a vid a couple years ago on eating tree bark. 





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Quillsnkiko
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 08:25

08 Dec 2017, 03:05 #20

Interesting ..thanks for posting that.... DuxDawg

Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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