flakehead
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9:20 PM - Apr 24, 2006 #121

A thought occured to me earlier about this fulcrum idea, I wonder if the shaft wrench pictured earlier could be used for this very task? I'm not suggesting it, but want to open it up for conversation. I'm sure someone else has pondered this as well.???

FH
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scalp creek
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10:33 PM - Apr 24, 2006 #122

Interesting thought. I would think it would have to be a moderately long, somewhat flexible shaft, similar to the branch Swoose uses...maybe 3 feet long, and flexible. if the wrench were of mammoth bone, and fresh mammoth bone, that thickness, don't know if it would be flexible at all. just thinking out loud. I honestly don't know.
jerry
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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Knapper42
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11:22 PM - Apr 24, 2006 #123

I don't know if the old folks used the wrench for fluting but it can be used for fluting. As I have said b4, a friend wondered if that was the purpose of the wrench and then went on to show us how to flute with a box end wrench and a screw driver which he liken to the bone/antler wrench. Who knows, there must be a million ways to use leverage.
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Idaho Clovisman
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2:27 PM - Apr 25, 2006 #124

I believe a couple of years ago after another Clovis fiasco He sold the whole fenn collection ....i might be wrong but i believe that is accurate.... before i ever believe they did any clovis with leverage someone will have to show me a leverage type flaked point...and not just one ,Now on the other hand i do have a idea that leverage was used on Folsoms and i think maybe because of the flake scar it is long and smooth with no udalations like percussion and there are a lot of those points found like that BUT and this is the key that are small in comparison to clovis points and Most clovis points are not fluted very far ...infact most are not even fluted 1/3rd the way....there are exceptions but not many...also something to think about the red Fenn point is very very flat like a percussion piece...IE the sweetwater byface is also flat....now most every pressure flaked piece i have ever seen had convexity in the piece the flakes like to run ridges. Pressure flakes DO NOT like flat surfaces(remember working slabs?) and those flakes if they are pressure are huge...If God did Not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
We have learned that though there are many papers in Washington upon which are written promises to pay us for our lands,no white man seems to remember them.

Four Guns.
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scalp creek
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2:45 PM - Apr 25, 2006 #125

Mike,
What is your opinion on why, how, etc that the Clovis points, gave way to the Folsom points? Is it because the mega fauna disappeared, and the larger points were no longer needed? Granted, not all the clovis points were as large as the really famous ones like the Fenn cache etc, but generally the clovis points seem to be larger, and not quite as delicate as the folsoms. Not counting the difference in the fluting. I have often pondered the reason the point size got smaller and more delicate, not having a really satisfactory answer, it is good to discuss. (I have 3 reproduction Folsom points made by Bob Patten using his "rocker punch" method, they are quite authentic looking)

jerry
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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Idaho Clovisman
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4:59 PM - Apr 25, 2006 #126

i would have to agree with you when the mega fauna disapeared there was no reason to make the larger points ,also my opinion is that the large points like the Wennachee cache were knives hafted onto foreshafts and carried as defensive spears then when needed you simply removed the foreshaft and you had a knife big enough to cut large chuncks of meat(ever tried to cut through a 2 foot piece of meat with a 3 inch point????) and when done just put it back on the spear..the bone rods that they have found in assosiation with clovis sites they come in pairs and again my opinion they are foreshafts ,NOT sled runners as some archy;s would have you to believe,,reason ,well anyone who has hafted anything with real sinew knows when snow or water gets into it it comes apart ,and besides they had the best sled runners money could buy Mammoth ribs all one piece and shaped just right...If God did Not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
We have learned that though there are many papers in Washington upon which are written promises to pay us for our lands,no white man seems to remember them.

Four Guns.
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sandhillcowboy1
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11:59 PM - Apr 25, 2006 #127

Marty is gone so I can write now, and he can't argue with me Hammerstones were only used for throwing at mammoths when you ran out of atlatls

O.K. Marty made a good point about the beginning and middle of the process being as important, if not more so, than the end. He also mentions his thoughts that the Western Clovis was fairly linear from start to finish, which I agree with. From what I know of pressure flaking, it would be very difficult to pressure flake a preform that is as flat as the Red Fenn point must have been before the final series of flakes. I think Mike mentioned about the extreme flatness of the Fenn point also. The only way I know of would be to do some FOG similar to the Egyptian Girzian knives to otain flat pressure flakes that cover the width of the Fenn Point. Now before we can make any statement concerning what technique was used, one must either try all currently know methods, or study the works of ones who are experimenting with new methods, before one can make any all encompassing statements about how they were or weren't made. And as Mike said if you can make one with all the right attributes, you probably have got something there in your technique That is why I am so interested in seeing Swoose's technique and also doing some experimenting with a rocker punch technique, just to see what those methods are capable of.

From my own limited experimentation I would tend to agree with Mike that it was done with percussion but I haven't made one yet either Below is a pic of an attempt at producing a thin, extremely flat biface using percussion, while retaining flake scars similar to the Fenn point. I know Marty will say I need to use some tough stuff like Bijou Hills, but this was the largest piece of material I had at the time (waiting for my KRF from Marty) plus the brittleness of obsidian is somewhat similar to the red phosphoria.

This was a spall I worked using only antler billet percussion and some limited hammerstones, the width is about 2 1/4inches and a little over 3 inches long. The piece is as flat and thin as the Fenn point, but I don't have the control I need over the sequencing and direction of the final series yet. Some of the flakes on the original are actually a collateral type if you look closely, and that's what I attempted on this. The rippling and some of the terminations, give me hope that I may be on the right track. Very tough trying to photograph obsidian and also show the flatness when in macro mode, which wants to give some perspective distortion (make flat round). No attempt was made to do any shaping, this was purely an experiment. The last pic shows the thickness of the biface.

Rick



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flakehead
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11:43 AM - Apr 26, 2006 #128

You guys are getting close, real close!

I'm posting the famous Red Fenn Point, and in this photo you can really see the ripples in the flakes. I had another thought about the pattern; Is it possible the point could have been shaped from a wide pre-form that had normal/strait wide flat flakes, and end up with the flakes running diagonally? I apologize for my ignorance, as I have never held the cast to see if I could answer my own question.




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scalp creek
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12:45 PM - Apr 26, 2006 #129

FH, don't think so. If my memory serves me correctly (my cast is at home and I am elsewhere), the flat flakes on each side of the point run perpendicular to each other. Believe you can see that in the photo. Flakes on side A run "north and south" and on side B run "east and west". Plus they run "outre passe", curving down to the edge.

jerry
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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Idaho Clovisman
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1:47 PM - Apr 26, 2006 #130

If you look at the left side and go two flakes up from the bottom you can see that neither that flake or the one above it went coast to coast and in fact they have presurre flakes from the other side to take out the material that those two flakes missed ..and when he did those little pressure flakes he kept them in line with the larger percussion scars making it look like one long flake ...or the illusion of it...and if you handle the cast you can see many of the percussion scars did not make it all the way accross and are finished from the other side with pressure.... but there are a few coast to coast shots and one near the tip took out a portion of the other side ...and he left it that way...If God did Not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
We have learned that though there are many papers in Washington upon which are written promises to pay us for our lands,no white man seems to remember them.

Four Guns.
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sandhillcowboy1
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2:40 PM - Apr 26, 2006 #131

Mike is correct, not all of the flakes are complete coast to coast. No, mine does not have the oblique (diagonal) sequencing on. This was an experiment mainly in being able to obtain a flat biface with percussion and then secondarily to see if I could get a few flakes that match some of the characteristics of some of the originals, the reason I did no shaping, was kind of a spur of the moment thing. This is not in any way, supposed to be my claim to a Fenn replica Marty's discussion about the beginning and middle of the process being important, I thought I would show some of my "middle" experimentation in hopes that might be able to garner some new info that will allow to proceed farther. First what process were they using that enabled them to produce the very flat biface, second what type of process would replicate the scar pattern of the original, third, how to do them oblique and do all of the above without breaking such a thin biface. Percussion flakes on such a thin biface can give you yellow wrist syndrome (YWS). The thing I found encouraging about my experiment was the flake scar characteristics seem to have some of the same attributes as the original.....but I am prejudiced

Rick
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scalp creek
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3:54 PM - Apr 26, 2006 #132

Rick, YOu did a cracker jack job on the obsidians piece. thanks for clarifying the flaking on the redfenn. I was under the impression, from listening & watching the Bruce Bradley dvd on clovis knapping, that at least he thinks that the first phase of clovis knapping, is made up of outre passe, on at least a number of the passes. Not all you understand, but some and maybe most. The reasoning Dr. Bradley gives is so that clovisman could use the large flakes as tools, thus getting the most "bang for the buck" from the rock he toted around the countryside.
On your flaking, what you call collateral flaking, sometimes meeting the channel of one flake from the other side with an opposing flake, has got to be as hard as outre passe. Another example of Clovis man, making tools more pleasing to the eye, than necessary for the task at hand. (IMHO)

Jerry
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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Idaho Clovisman
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8:14 PM - Apr 26, 2006 #133

You are correct scalp they hit the piece as few times as was nessicarry it gave them large flakes for tools and it thinned the piece in a jiffy but as the piece needed to be finished some of the coast to coast shots are wiped out in the final stages...If God did Not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
We have learned that though there are many papers in Washington upon which are written promises to pay us for our lands,no white man seems to remember them.

Four Guns.
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scalp creek
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8:23 PM - Apr 26, 2006 #134

I think we are all on the same page, it is just hard to put into words on the web sometimes.
jerry
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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scalp creek
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4:47 PM - Apr 27, 2006 #135

If God did Not want us to eat animals why did She make them out of meat?

IHC,
I checked out my cast of the red fenn piece today...it is kind of hard to tell for sure which ones are definitely coast to coast. I know to look for the direction of the ripples to tell which side the flake initiated (spelling?) on, and the flare out shell shape of the strike side. Still, with the later pressure flaking and such it is hard to tell too much from the Lithic casting lab cast. Do you consider the red point to be a combination knife and atlatl dart point? (i.e. mounted on a foreshaft for both uses) I have a cast of the Lamb site point, the one in white flint, marked LAMB 74 and Lamb 87....which one can hardly see any coast to coast flakes on if any. Of course it is not "western" clovis.

jerry
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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Idaho Clovisman
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12:40 AM - Apr 28, 2006 #136

my 2 cents it is a knife to big for throwing and the tip is not (IMO) is niot the correct shape for penetrating a mammoth hide....so i say Knife

how come you are quoting my sig.. If God did Not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
We have learned that though there are many papers in Washington upon which are written promises to pay us for our lands,no white man seems to remember them.

Four Guns.
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scalp creek
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11:58 AM - Apr 28, 2006 #137

rick the signature quote is a joke as I made God a "she" rather than a he as a joke....ha ha ...
I agree on the big clovis, most likely a knife. i suspect they used them as a knife and later as a point as they got broke into smaller pieced, or if they were 5 days walk from flint and needed a new dart point. they would canablize the knife for dart tips. can't cut up what you can't kill.
j.
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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Idaho Clovisman
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12:31 PM - Apr 28, 2006 #138

LMAO i never saw the She ...good one Oh and it is Mike Not Rick .. If God did Not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
We have learned that though there are many papers in Washington upon which are written promises to pay us for our lands,no white man seems to remember them.

Four Guns.
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scalp creek
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4:42 PM - Apr 28, 2006 #139

well I plead "it was before my first cup of coffee" on that one. On top of that, my stinking watch stopped and I missed an appointment. Have to laugh to keep from cryin'....
jerry, or larry or joe or someone....
I have never lost an obstinate sense of detachment, of the need for solitude---a feeling which increases with the years. ~~ Albert Einstein
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Just a Flake
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6:18 AM - May 03, 2006 #140

"we'll never really know how how artifacts were actually made thousands of years ago"

I hear this a lot, and I don't wholly disagree, but I do mostly. I'll explain and I'll keep it simple.

75 years ago we knew almost nothing about flintknapping and lithic analysis because knowledge was lost. Now we say things and take them as fact that wouldn't be believed, or understood in the recent past. Experiments in flintknapping show distinct signatures for different tools and the flakes they produce. We will know things in another 75 years about lithic tech.The archaeology will get better hopefully, and there will be a greater number of flintknappers hopefully who will be driven seriously to compare to different lost technologies. I don't see it as a mission with a specific destination like conquering the fenn clovis or the sweetwater biface, but as a mission without a destination where lithic analysis in archaeological groupings overlap sufficiently replication study so that we might view the broader relationships and inventions in the stone age. Things that seem so different are often not, and the reason for difference is rooted in understanding the process before anything else. OK, that's short for me.

The work that has been done by knappers learning about the neolithic axe and dagger tradition has been so compelling one would say "that's just how they ground those, and that's just how they made them too!" Why should any other artifacts be out of reach? Replicating a point to the T is impossible, only the dead person had the ability to put his fingerprints on the piece leaves his legacy, but we can learn enogh about different processes to leave our own fingerprints that may show greater relation to him, than even his own hunting buddies in many cases. Relationships are not based on absolutes, but themes that play out with predictable shifts.

I agree Mike, simple is good, and I don't mean to make it seem like I flintknapp like I post, making it more than it really should be, but I do think that you can over simplify also. Since we know that hammerstones, billets, punches, and a horde of unknown holding and staging practices were used by the natives that were simple to them, but lost on us, it is more complicated for us to figure out what was simple for them. They didn't make these things to survive, they did WAY more than that. There is no method in succeeding in making a clovis within reason that is simple, and therefore a more rational approach. People with skills that are practiced always think that their way is simpler, however complicated to the next fellow. This is one of the main distinctions that separates cultures, old and new.

I found some artifacts (manufacture breaks) and a bunch of killer krf and raney butte on my trip up north, not as much as last year, but still a good amt. KRF is one of the best possible materials in my opinion for practicing paleo points, it's tough but glassy and was highly prized by the natives. I'll be at water creek and booneville with some of the rock.
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