A Design Challenge

Tim Baker
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Tim Baker
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Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 6:22 am

November 13th, 2005, 9:22 am #1

Somehow figure a way to make a straight bow with zero string height and no set, but which can still be gripped and shot with accuracy and comfort. The benefits:

If no or low set, and zero or near zeros brace height, string tension can be higher that if braced at normal height. High string tension combined with zero brace height will yield high early draw weigh and a longer true draw length or power stroke [say a true 28" instead of the typical 22"]. The results will be a longer and fatter f/d curve for far greater energy storage;

Zero brace height will allow the bow to bend several inches less at full draw, for lower limb strain. Which in turn can buy either lower set or narrower, lower-mass limbs, or a combination of the two.


PS: Steve [Badger] and I were just on the phone and got to wondering if our Paleo arguments give people the idea were as odd with each other. The fact is we argue even more in person, and couldn't be in better spirits about it, because of the way it speeds up the learning process. It's enormously valuable having people who don't just tolerate but encourage frank, no-baloney criticism. It lets you build on bedrock. Speaking for myself, please don't ever hesitate to make honest forceful argument againt anything I might ever post here. Tim
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Rod
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November 13th, 2005, 9:30 am #2

It will need to be centreshot to avoid massive paradox?
Rod.
It's meant to be simple, not easy.
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ionian
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November 13th, 2005, 3:43 pm #3

The bows have already been made by Adam Karpo.... (SP??). They were short and the biggest difficulty he had was finding staves that he could manipulate into the handle shape he needed. The article is in an older PA magazine. I was hoping, like many others, that someone would follow up on this, but for some reason it went away. I hope it picks up steam now that Tim is interested.
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badger5149
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November 13th, 2005, 4:39 pm #4

Rod, and ionian, those were both of the issues that came up last night when Tim and I were talking, browsing through some not so straight tree limbs could very well hold a stav just like Tim is describing. I actually know of several who have worked with designs like the Karpwicz including myself. They are fast but difficult to tiller and even more difficult to manage the mass and not have them breal, a man from back east by the name of Allen Courier competes in flight shooting with thses bows and does pretty well. He seems to have a problem with his bows comming in underweight, I had a similar problem. Just a zero brace height with a forward handle as Tim is describing might give the same results as a karpowicz design but may be easier to tiller somewhat. Steve
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meke718
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November 13th, 2005, 5:30 pm #5

i think the stonebow handle design with two lightweight bows might have something to give to this challenge will ponder will play around with it and reporti can get 3 inch fistemeles with regular and not hit handle is usually offset so string can be perfect center. moving a little more left or right might leave for 1 or 0 fistemele
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meke718
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November 13th, 2005, 5:38 pm #6

pics of handle www.meke717.anewbowdesign...hare.co.nz

maybe a little wider so the vertical handle ccan be more to right
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George Tsoukalas
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November 13th, 2005, 7:00 pm #7

The wrist slap will be incredible, Tim. As for the statement as to whether you and Badger are odd... Jawgehttp://mysite.verizon.net/georgeandjoni
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Manyskins
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November 13th, 2005, 7:31 pm #8

On the Discovery show "Going Tribal" I saw a lot of bows with really low brace hieght, in both Africa and South America. They did not draw them far and must have incountered tremendous wrist slap. The bows were very long actually, with no recurve or compex handles or anything. They probably weren't zero brace hieght but awful close. You guys have MUCH more technical knowlegde than I do on the subject but I thought you might want to take a look (If you can find some reruns or other examples)
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badger5149
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November 13th, 2005, 7:41 pm #9

George, Tim is just incredibly hard headed, I just don't what it's gonna take for him to start seeing things my way!! Steve
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badger5149
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November 13th, 2005, 7:47 pm #10

Many skins, so far every design that I have looked at had some ingenius aspect to it, sometimes it was a matter of overcomming weak wood, or whatever, but I am sure the design you saw has some reason to it, be nice if we had the energy to expore all the different designs, one of my many fantasies is to have a club/workshop where all we did was build bows and expore different design angles, then collectively as a group evaluate and critique the different pros and cons of each one. So far I have seen nothing in making bows that was not a trade off somewhere else. The big mystery is trying to dicscover which evidence is exposed to us that will allow us to hone in on a proper design and demension for any given piece of wood, Steve
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ionian
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November 13th, 2005, 7:50 pm #11

Manyskins, unlike the bows mentioned here, the ones you are refering to are usually made of weak wood and are under very little tension at brace.
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Tim Baker
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November 13th, 2005, 7:52 pm #12

Ionian: Archery trivia: per the above comments about Steve and I arguing, and the benefits: Adam Karpowicz and I were having a multi-day energetic argument about energy storage and limb shape. He came up with his new design as a result, and won the argument. In surrender I wrote the introduction to his PA article.

Yes, the bow I'm trying to imagine would have the early string tension of the Karpowicz bow, but as Steve notes, somehow not have the forward grip, and would in all regards be a simple straight bow, easy to tiller and maintain.

Meke719: I didn't want to mention it in the opening post, hoping someone would have a different inspiration, but yes, the double bow might be a good way to get the job done. Still hoping a single bow will emerge. You use PhotoShare. Me too. Excellent outfit.

George: Yes, wrist slap is the single-stave demon. Possibly we can come up with a way to grip the bow at its side, with some counter leverage arm thing to keep the bow from twisting... yes, sounds like a contraption, but maybe there will be a simple, 'paleo-legal' way to do it. Tim
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ionian
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November 13th, 2005, 7:59 pm #13

Tim, I don't understand. What is the problem with the forward grip? Other then the right stave would be difficult to find.
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Tim Baker
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November 13th, 2005, 8:21 pm #14

ionian: Mainly that you loose several inches of true draw length. And tillering becomes more complicated, or constructin more complicated than for a simple straight bow. Tim
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Fundin
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November 13th, 2005, 9:12 pm #15

I am currently drying a short lilac stave growing with a natural protruding handle and a deflex-reflex shape..... Quite common with gnarly whitewoods
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Mark in England
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November 13th, 2005, 9:30 pm #16

Manyskins,
I was going to say exactly the same as you. I have seen and shot amazonian bows that had very little or no set and practically zero brace height. String breakage was a problem and the archer often had a considerable quantity of spare string wrapped around the bow to use when needed for a quick repair.
Ionian, these bows were made of Ipe or black palm, not weak woods. My belief is that this design is used due to the high humidity to avoid excessive set.
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gduff2
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November 14th, 2005, 2:47 am #17



Here's funky handle for a short bow. Not sure if it'll be accepted as strait stave though.
Garrett
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gduff2
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November 14th, 2005, 2:55 am #18

Oh, I guess Tim rejected this. Never mind.
Short of drilling a hole in the handle I can't think of a way to get around the paradox problem.

Catch the pun? Around the paradox . Just like the arrow has to go around the handle. I kill myself
Garrett
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aussie yeoman
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November 14th, 2005, 6:25 am #19

I think I may be considering a possible idea. Would require shooting slightly differently. Will post pics within the next few days as sometimes what I'm trying to describe comes all out wrong confused and.


Plus, I wanna keep you all in suspense

Dave
Articles to help the new bowyer, with Australian bowyers particularly in mind:
http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/index. ... /tutorials
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Rod
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November 14th, 2005, 9:05 am #20

That would solve the question of paradox if the handle was far forward enough to simulate a decent brace height, but the string is only in contact at the tips so it doesn't really qualify....
It's meant to be simple, not easy.
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