OUTLANDER: Was the marriage only Dougal's idea?

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Joined: September 22nd, 2014, 10:21 am

December 9th, 2014, 12:43 pm #31

In the show, it is clear that part of Dougal's motivation to marry Claire off was to keep her from telling BJR about Dougal's treasonous fundraising: "She took a few blows from Randall without saying anything, and that's more than I'd expect from any woman," or words to that effect. Which makes me wonder: why did he really bring her along on the rent-collecting trip and let her see all his treason? Wouldn't it have made more sense to leave her at Castle Leoch, than to let a suspected spy see all this?

In the book, doesn't Dougal says something like he's bringing Claire on the trip so that he can take her to see the garrison commander (ie BJR although we don't know that yet), to see what he makes of her (ie to see if she is an English spy or some other sort)? That is a little more plausible than the tv version of "a healer is always useful on the road," but it still doesn't explain why he lets a possible spy see so much. Nor why he would take her to BJR, knowing that BJR had already tried to rape her once. But it explains the marriage idea a little better: he wasn't sure what she would turn out to be, so he had the marriage as a back-up plan in case she's innocent.

I don't think Jamie and Dougal were talking about the marriage in the barn scene in the book: they were probably discussing the possibility of finding Horrocks if Jamie went on the road.
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Joined: September 23rd, 2014, 5:50 am

December 9th, 2014, 10:39 pm #32

Armbruster wrote:In the show, it is clear that part of Dougal's motivation to marry Claire off was to keep her from telling BJR about Dougal's treasonous fundraising: "She took a few blows from Randall without saying anything, and that's more than I'd expect from any woman," or words to that effect. Which makes me wonder: why did he really bring her along on the rent-collecting trip and let her see all his treason? Wouldn't it have made more sense to leave her at Castle Leoch, than to let a suspected spy see all this?

In the book, doesn't Dougal says something like he's bringing Claire on the trip so that he can take her to see the garrison commander (ie BJR although we don't know that yet), to see what he makes of her (ie to see if she is an English spy or some other sort)? That is a little more plausible than the tv version of "a healer is always useful on the road," but it still doesn't explain why he lets a possible spy see so much. Nor why he would take her to BJR, knowing that BJR had already tried to rape her once. But it explains the marriage idea a little better: he wasn't sure what she would turn out to be, so he had the marriage as a back-up plan in case she's innocent.

I don't think Jamie and Dougal were talking about the marriage in the barn scene in the book: they were probably discussing the possibility of finding Horrocks if Jamie went on the road.
Actually, Dougal took Claire to BJR because he thought she was a spy for him. BJR quickly disabused him of that notion. And Dougal never told Claire out loud that he was taking her along to see what the garrison commander makes of her. Claire guesses that by herself. He tells her that the commander can help her reach France.
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Joined: September 22nd, 2014, 10:21 am

December 11th, 2014, 11:51 am #33

Chericola wrote:Actually, Dougal took Claire to BJR because he thought she was a spy for him. BJR quickly disabused him of that notion. And Dougal never told Claire out loud that he was taking her along to see what the garrison commander makes of her. Claire guesses that by herself. He tells her that the commander can help her reach France.
Yes, you are right, I misremembered that bit. However, it still doesn't explain, to my satisfaction at least, why Dougal let Claire observe all his treasonous fund-raising, if he thought her a spy.
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Joined: October 6th, 2014, 4:39 am

December 11th, 2014, 4:13 pm #34

Armbruster wrote:
Chericola wrote:
However, it still doesn't explain, to my satisfaction at least, why Dougal let Claire observe all his treasonous fund-raising, if he thought her a spy.
Maybe he was just showing off?
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Anam-Charaid
Clan Fraser
Joined: September 19th, 2009, 5:20 pm

December 11th, 2014, 5:10 pm #35

Dougal believed Claire didn't understand enough Gaelic to comprehend everything he spouted during his harangues.

Outlander trade paperback edition 2001 pg 152:

"Coming gradually back to an awareness of my surroundings, I realized that he was skillfully rousing his audience to a high pitch of excitement about something."

A little bit later in the scene Claire reveals she understood the call to "Bragh Stuart", versus what should have been "King George's health".

Pg 152, Colum speaks: "No matter which sovereign it is? he repeatedly softly. "I thought ye had no Gaelic."

Perhaps this was Dougal's way to snare Claire into revealing herself as a spy, a trap she quickly evades. At this point, I would think Dougal suspicions are slightly diminished. When BJR confirms that Claire is not an English spy and proceeds to threaten her bodily then the new idea to save Claire and to defuse Jamie's position as a possible clan leader begin to form in his mind. MHO.

FYI, repoman posted a related question in the chapter discussion here but it wasn't fully explored.

But the wine had been too strong for her, as it had for the others; and like the others she had stepped from the safe shores of friendship. She stood now in another country, whose sun burned and whose air was too rare for her breathing. Checkmate
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Joined: February 6th, 2018, 4:40 am

February 6th, 2018, 3:43 pm #36

Bumping this thread back to life, since this is one of my favorite puzzles in OL.  On first reading I wondered why Dougal went to so much trouble on Claire's account.   After many readings, my theory is that Dougal wanted to sleep with Claire, so she had to be married, so if anything, ah, happened, the resulting child could be passed off as her husband's. Remember when Claire objected to marrying Jamie, he was willing to choose Rupert instead? It was one of those 18th vs. 20th century mindset scenes--to Dougal, women would not be able to refuse marriage, but he was willing to take into consideration her preference as to whom.  To Claire, the idea of being ordered to marry was absurd. 

Dougal chose Jamie vs. the other men because, as was said in the book, Jamie would not be chosen laird if he had a Sassenach wife.  I also think there was some appeal to Dougal to "keep Jamie in his place" by forcing Jamie to marry Claire and then seducing Claire.    I don't believe Dougal understood that Claire and Jamie had the bond that they had-I think he put moves on her after they were married and Claire rebuked him.  That was clear in the TV series but I can't remember if it was in the book until later on when Jamie was in prison and Dougal tried to talk Claire into letting Jamie go and marrying him. 
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Joined: August 21st, 2015, 5:07 pm

February 6th, 2018, 7:01 pm #37

Curioser wrote: Dougal chose Jamie vs. the other men because, as was said in the book, Jamie would not be chosen laird if he had a Sassenach wife.  I also think there was some appeal to Dougal to "keep Jamie in his place" by forcing Jamie to marry Claire and then seducing Claire.    I don't believe Dougal understood that Claire and Jamie had the bond that they had-I think he put moves on her after they were married and Claire rebuked him.  That was clear in the TV series but I can't remember if it was in the book until later on when Jamie was in prison and Dougal tried to talk Claire into letting Jamie go and marrying him. 
Plus, Dougal wanted Lallybroch and, knowing Jamie was prone to accidents (sometimes at Dougal's own hands), he was hoping he would befall a fatal one and then Dougal could marry Claire and claim it. 
The minister's cat is a camstairy cat.
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Joined: February 6th, 2018, 4:40 am

February 6th, 2018, 8:12 pm #38

Vala wrote:
Curioser wrote: Dougal chose Jamie vs. the other men because, as was said in the book, Jamie would not be chosen laird if he had a Sassenach wife.  I also think there was some appeal to Dougal to "keep Jamie in his place" by forcing Jamie to marry Claire and then seducing Claire.    I don't believe Dougal understood that Claire and Jamie had the bond that they had-I think he put moves on her after they were married and Claire rebuked him.  That was clear in the TV series but I can't remember if it was in the book until later on when Jamie was in prison and Dougal tried to talk Claire into letting Jamie go and marrying him. 
Plus, Dougal wanted Lallybroch and, knowing Jamie was prone to accidents (sometimes at Dougal's own hands), he was hoping he would befall a fatal one and then Dougal could marry Claire and claim it. 
Yes-that too! 
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