Joined: July 26th, 2012, 9:00 pm

September 25th, 2012, 12:53 pm #16

repoman wrote:Jamie was more abused than "just" raped as we know from reading about it while "visiting" his cell as well as his recollection later. Among other things, his hand was cruelly broken, and BJR tried his best to break Jamie psychologically. Given his extreme abuse, I wouldn't want to compare Jamie's experience to any other tragedy.

However, I do agree that I cannot imagine any rape victim not experiencing both physical and emotional injury that would require extensive healing. My feeling is that comparing one tragedy to another is not productive. Jamie may have been well intentioned in rationalizing minimal damage to Brianna. Maybe he was using 18th C attitudes. IMHO, Jamie was totally wrong.
I think we may be seeing 18th century thinking at work here. Jamie can rationalize the seriousness of his own injuries versus Brianna's because they went beyond rape. But as you indicate there is always physical and certainly emotional damage as the result of rape, at least that's how it's viewed in the 21st century. Perhaps Jamie was more aggrieved than a typical 18th century man? It is one thing to beat up a man with your fists, something else to sell him into slavery.

It might be noted that Jamie took on the responsibility of punishing Roger himself and did not consider letting the (imperfect) legal system address the issue. Jamie is something of a law unto himself, living on the frontier as he did.
Jerry


"Aye, I believe ye, Sassenach. But it would ha' been a good deal easier if you'd only been a witch."
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repoman
Clan Fraser Veteran
Joined: February 16th, 2011, 9:47 am

September 25th, 2012, 5:45 pm #17

JerryT wrote:It might be noted that Jamie took on the responsibility of punishing Roger himself and did not consider letting the (imperfect) legal system address the issue. Jamie is something of a law unto himself, living on the frontier as he did.
We have already seen how imperfect the legal system was in the vicinity of Cross Creek. I think that DG correctly portrays the legal system as nonexistent (or "very informal'?) on the Ridge. Besides, Jamie is the landlord and not significantly different than the laird back at Lallybroch.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2015, 7:17 pm

August 17th, 2016, 8:34 pm #18

I am bothered that Jamie lied to Claire about where he was that day, and when she suspected he wasn't telling her the truth and asked him about his damaged hand, he let her believe that he hit a tree. After all his talk and his demanding of her that they always be honest with each other, this isn't like Jamie. What am I missing? I'll read the comments on this thread to see if anyone sheds light on this.
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repoman
Clan Fraser Veteran
Joined: February 16th, 2011, 9:47 am

August 18th, 2016, 1:50 am #19

Welcome to the discussion, Zahia!

Reading the last couple of posts, I would like to point out that the legal system of the time would reward a rapist with the pregnant woman in marriage. I admire Jamie for taking his own actions to prevent this injustice (in his eyes and ours). Never mind the misunderstanding for the present!

Having said that, Jamie does contribute to the drama by failing to be honest and discuss his actions with Claire. But, that is part of the story. And in fairness, Claire withholds information from Jamie because of her promise to Brianna. We are left with memory of a tender moment between Jamie and Brianna.
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Joined: July 11th, 2016, 7:35 am

August 29th, 2016, 9:07 am #20

What a great summary and thoughts for discussion audiobooklover! I enjoyed reading everyone's points and perspectives. Great discussion, all!

I think this drama goes back to that foundational basis of marriage discussion in OL 15, “And I think that respect has maybe room for secrets, but not for lies. Do ye agree?” And shortly after this, Jamie tells Claire the first of his reasons (of the ones he's prepared to say at this early time) for marrying her, "... to keep ye safe...".

So, no lies, but Jamie and Claire are both so intent on keeping their own and respecting each other's (Brianna's in Claire's case) secrets. So much withheld knowledge, yet all for good reasons considering the codes of honour that Claire and Jamie hold as most important. Claire is concerned to protect Brianna's self-determination and control of her own life, Jamie is acting to keep his daughter safe and it all gets ballsed up.

I am fairly sanguine about it, given Claire and Jamie are also bridging eras with distinctly different attitudes to rape, marriage, respectability, and pregnancy outside marriage. And without that lack of communication, we wouldn't have all the drama associated with Roger's sidetrack into Indian life, and even more importantly, Ian's.
Those small spaces of time, too soon gone, when everything seems to stand still, and existence is balanced on a perfect point, like the moment of change between the dark and the light...Chapter 29, The Last Reason, Outlander
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repoman
Clan Fraser Veteran
Joined: February 16th, 2011, 9:47 am

August 29th, 2016, 12:00 pm #21

mhaighstir, Secrets, or at least lack of communication, is a recurring theme in Diana Gabaldon's books.
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Joined: July 11th, 2016, 7:35 am

August 29th, 2016, 12:19 pm #22

Very true! I enjoy following how that theme manifests with both the protagonists and antagonists in these novels. Secret/Esoteric, Spiritual or Just "Plain" Scientific Fact is power in the hands of those who can most skilfully wield it, and can be directed for good or ill. Though it is that grey area, when our heroes struggle with what to say to each other that oft gives us those most emotionally fraught or rewarding scenes.
Those small spaces of time, too soon gone, when everything seems to stand still, and existence is balanced on a perfect point, like the moment of change between the dark and the light...Chapter 29, The Last Reason, Outlander
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Joined: September 30th, 2016, 8:02 pm

August 14th, 2018, 8:05 pm #23

Zahia wrote: I am bothered that Jamie lied to Claire about where he was that day, and when she suspected he wasn't telling her the truth and asked him about his damaged hand, he let her believe that he hit a tree.  After all his talk and his demanding of her that they always be honest with each other, this isn't like Jamie. What am I missing? I'll read the comments on this thread to see if anyone sheds light on this.
This very thing struck me on this reading (my third of this book). Jamie flat out lies - doesn't omit or fudge or hedge... just lies. Says he was with Fergus, he hit the trees... I'm sure there are other instances where he's lied outright but at this time I can't think of any.
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