Joined: November 3rd, 2011, 12:41 am

December 16th, 2011, 9:54 pm #16

I agree, I don't think Dougal tried to rape her. I think that he was just reminding her that he had power over her and could if he wanted to. I do not know if we ever got a clear picture of what his motives were. He did protect her from BJR, but I think that had to do with what he knew of BJR based on the treatment of Jamie.
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audiobooklover
Clan Fraser
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 10:09 pm

December 16th, 2011, 10:56 pm #17

Wow LAMP! I didn't even remember posting that because it was so long ago. :bigsmile:

I agree that Claire may have been an unreliable narrator here, and I think the first time I read Dragonfly I was surprised that she accused Dougal of threatening to rape her. But, my comment was based on Claire's perception of the situation - or perhaps even Claire's intentional exaggeration of what he said - which might not make her unreliable, if she wanted to use that to disconcert Dougal. In any case, whether Dougal would actually have done that is a separate question from what Claire perceived and/or said.

Or at least that's what I think I meant. It's been so long that I can't say for sure. :lol:
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Joined: October 22nd, 2011, 4:30 am

May 29th, 2014, 3:24 am #18

Wow great discussion peoples! Yes this is one of the hardest scenes in the series so far and ranks up alongside the scattered descriptions of BJR's torture of Jamie and the battle for Jamie's soul at the end of OL.

Holy Crap! The first time I read this chapter it sent shockwaves through my soul! My heart thudded and I literally sat staring at the words on the page for ages...in fact I had to read through the paragraphs several times to make sure I'd gotten it right! Talk about blind-sided! I couldn't/wouldn't believe that BJR was alive! And less that Claire would want to keep him that way! What a shock! What conflict between C & J, as with you all it broke my heart when he begged her to let him kill BJR :x


Then to back that up with Dougal's return, right when Claire is still in shock and trying to cope with BJR's unexpected showing :cry:

I wondered what the hell Dougal was doing in Paris? Not like he could aford to be away from Leoch if Colum was so ill? What was so important? He says he's come to call on a kinsmen, but not which one? :thinking:

I was more than a little surprised given their last meeting that Dougal had come to see them in Paris? Was he there to see Jared, not knowing J & C were there or did he want to talk to Jamie about something?

I'm also surprised by how quickly Claire nabs him and coerces him into helping her out...would I trust Dougal? I dinnae think so!

However DG has used an interesting device, once again to provide Claire with information regarding Les Disciples that she wouldn't have gotten from any other quarter :thumbsup:
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Joined: June 22nd, 2014, 11:36 pm

July 30th, 2014, 12:52 am #19

I also believe this chapter shows how much Jamie has grown. What we now know to be Alexander Randall at that French garden party or whatever it was he was about to kill him in front of all those people. But now he knows for sure that that's BJR and calmly just protects Claire. I wonder if he had just seen him across the room at the Duke's house without Claire present if Jamie would've just lunged and killed him with his dirk.
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Pauline
Clan Fraser
Joined: October 1st, 2009, 11:19 pm

July 30th, 2014, 1:10 am #20

Not sure if he would have done that in public, Jack's status as it was, but I could see him following him out and taking him down without Claire around.
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Joined: August 11th, 2014, 11:18 am

August 20th, 2014, 4:09 pm #21

Holy mother of god, BJR is alive?!!! Oh my god, I'm shocked. Just finished reading the part where Jamie tells him never to call him "Jamie" but Lord Broch Tuarach and that he may only call him Jamie when he begs for his life. I hope they put that into the show because thatvwas just badass. Go Jamie!
Anyhow, I guess I should have waited till I finished the chaptar but I was just too excited :D
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audiobooklover
Clan Fraser
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 10:09 pm

August 20th, 2014, 5:34 pm #22

It was certainly an Untimely Resurrection. And, I was shocked too, on my first read. Yes, that would be a great scene to put in the show. :)
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Suec
Clan Fraser
Suec
Clan Fraser
Joined: September 25th, 2012, 9:08 am

August 20th, 2014, 6:00 pm #23

Just an off the top of my head comment as I read the recent posts here, but, if Claire is now so anxious for BJR to stay alive in case Frank ceases to exist why, when she thought BJR was dead from the cattle at Wentworth did she not have those same thoughts?

It's a long time since I read DIA so maybe I have forgotten something!
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Joined: July 10th, 2014, 11:01 pm

August 20th, 2014, 6:12 pm #24

Well, Suec, as they say, hindsight is 20/20. Neither Claire nor Diana thought about it :) Actually, maybe Claire didn't know he didn't have children already...or couldn't remember the rev's chart as well as she does in other occasions.
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DLT
Clan Fraser
DLT
Clan Fraser
Joined: May 26th, 2012, 7:06 am

August 20th, 2014, 6:40 pm #25

My guess is that when she thought BJR was dead, she had no regrets, and as she herself did not disappear in a puff of smoke, then she was meant to be in that time, and as, for Frank, well there's was nothing she could do at that point.
Then, in DiA, when she realises BJR is not dead, she believes that it must be because he has to be kept alive long enough to sire a son to continue Frank's family line.
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audiobooklover
Clan Fraser
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 10:09 pm

August 20th, 2014, 6:44 pm #26

I agree with DLT. I also remember Claire thinking about the fact that she still had the gold wedding ring that Frank gave her, so presumably, he had still existed. This scene just explains to her how that might have been possible (it had been a mystery to her before) and now she believes that she must keep him alive to make that happen.
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Joined: September 23rd, 2014, 5:50 am

October 7th, 2014, 9:38 am #27

I see Novikov's Principle at work here. No matter how much Jamie wants to kill Randall, he won't be able to; something will always prevent him from causing a paradox by killing Randall. Randall must die at the battle of Culloden, because people in the future know that he died at that date. According to Novikov's Principle, a historical event cannot be changed if the consequences of that event can be seen in the present. So, because Frank and the good Rev knew about Randall and when he died, Jamie and Claire will not be able to kill Randall before that date and will always be prevented from killing Randall before his allotted date of death.

I wasn't surprised at Randall's reappearance; I'd never believed he'd died at Wentworth. It seemed too easy, and also impossible, for him to die before fathering Frank's line of ancestry. For the above reason, I believe that BJR could not have died at WP. History, once set in stone, cannot be changed. I think this whole novel is an example of this.

So I was expecting Randall to reappear somewhere in DiA, it was only when he'd appear that I didn't know. Now that he is back in the story, the plot will move much more quickly. everything will go downhill quickly from this point onward for Jamie and Claire.
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Anam-Charaid
Clan Fraser
Joined: September 19th, 2009, 5:20 pm

October 7th, 2014, 1:10 pm #28

Chericola wrote: I wasn't surprised at Randall's reappearance; I'd never believed he'd died at Wentworth. It seemed too easy, and also impossible, for him to die before fathering Frank's line of ancestry. For the above reason, I believe that BJR could not have died at WP. History, once set in stone, cannot be changed. I think this whole novel is an example of this.
:agree: Those were my thoughts...too easy.

Excellent reference to the Novikov principle. However, DIA is not just about futile efforts to change history, it's also about erroneous assumptions and how those affect current events and the future. ;)

But the wine had been too strong for her, as it had for the others; and like the others she had stepped from the safe shores of friendship. She stood now in another country, whose sun burned and whose air was too rare for her breathing. Checkmate
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Joined: July 10th, 2014, 11:01 pm

October 7th, 2014, 2:18 pm #29

I wonder then if the people Claire saves from dying is therefore prevented from conceiving?
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Joined: January 30th, 2012, 2:57 am

October 7th, 2014, 2:33 pm #30

Demetria wrote:I wonder then if the people Claire saves from dying is therefore prevented from conceiving?
Let's not make this more complicated than it already is!! :rotfl:

Chericola, thank you for the reference to Navikov's Principle. It's going to take me more than one read-through (yes, I'm looking up Navikov's Principle :bigsmile: ) to get a handle on it, but it certainly sounds applicable!

History and physics and 'when you assume, you make an .... ' Yep!! It's DG!!!
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