Wheels Slope-Sliding Sideways

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Wheels Slope-Sliding Sideways

Kenny
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Kenny
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22 Feb 2015, 18:11 #1

NOTE: Split from this topic.
Hopefully this one is not too offtopic for you as well, anyway
jigebren wrote:Or that the car is slowly sliding on the ground as soon as there's is the slightest slope (which from a Physics point of view makes no sense at all and just look ridiculous).
Since I noticed this issue a long time ago as well and already notified huki about the issue back then I was wondering what the status of this glitch is?

Is the possible source of the glitch already located?

If yes, can we expect a fix for it in the near future or does it require deeper modifications in the physics code?

If not, is it on the (long-term) to-do list or do you think a change like this would have too much of an effect on the "original experience" and therefore don't want to mess with it for now?
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jigebren
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jigebren
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22 Feb 2015, 22:02 #2

@Kenny
How can this one be considered offtopic since I mentioned it first myself?

Anyway, I already worked on that once, I think I came to the conclusion that the Re-Volt engine is not physically accurate in every places, in some case it rather looks as if they added empirical computations just to get to the result they expected... And it's hard to follow the reason of every line of code.

To make it short, I'm afraid this is almost impossible to fix without modifying the gameplay in a too noticeable way (unless we were able to compensate for the modification but that doesn't sound realistic to me), so there's almost no hope to have it fixed ever.

Off the top of my head though, I got some nice results already, but it made the car very easy to roll over because of the increased grip. If there were a way to quantify the induced grip change we could hope to compensate for it, but given the hacky nature of some computations in the original engine I doubt we can make it actually.

I always had in mind to add a new game mode to Re-Volt, an Obstacle Course mode where you would not have to go as fast as possible but where the goal would be to avoid falling out of the track as much as possible, with several checkpoints in the track, each time you fall this is counted and you start back to the last checkpoint (this is something you can find in Trackmania if I can remember). In that case the sliding wheels would have been a real issue, so it could have been fixed in that mode only. But as this mode requires specific new tracks to be created first anyhow, it will probably never be added...
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Abc
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22 Feb 2015, 22:26 #3

Guess Re-Volt is not meant to be an accurate racing engine unlike arma which is a military orientated engine and its pretty realistic btw

About the gamemodes i doubt why nobody has since coded such thing yet, theres an unofficial "gamemode" Last Man Standing, it could be made a full featured gamemode :)

What you're describing is "Platform", a mode that exists in Trackmania since it's inception.
Yep, it needs new tracks, lol, you want to introduce real drifting to re-volt?! would be nice tho, you may see that StadiumCar in TM is pretty much a true racing car and it does drift!
some of the other cars are funny and interesting too: Sport car is a drifty car, could be compared to some re-volt fast cars like ripperII or puma. snow car is the one with highest steer. and coast the hardest car and rally a tough car hehe, oh and desert one is pretty interesting because its about to flip on turns :P

Edited: no need to quote the whole message when answering
Yes, I'm the ABC block and you can find me in Toy World 1 track! ;)
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Manmountain
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22 Feb 2015, 22:46 #4

Abc @ 22 Feb 2015, 11:26 PM wrote: What you're describing is "Platform", a mode that  exists in Trackmania since it's inception.
Yep, it needs new tracks, lol, you want to introduce real drifting to re-volt?! would be nice tho, you may see that StadiumCar in TM is pretty much a true racing car and it does drift!
some of the other cars are funny and interesting too: Sport car is a drifty car, could be compared to some re-volt fast cars like ripperII or puma. snow car is the one with highest steer. and coast the hardest car and rally a tough car hehe, oh and desert one is pretty interesting because its about to flip on turns :P
Custom car performance and handling can be manually altered (tweak the params) to suit any version of RV's game physics and your personal preferences.

So I assume the issue is trying to match original game physics to new RV's interpretation.
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Abc
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22 Feb 2015, 22:53 #5

Manmountain @ 22 Feb 2015, 07:46 PM wrote:
Abc @ 22 Feb 2015, 11:26 PM wrote: What you're describing is "Platform", a mode that  exists in Trackmania since it's inception.
Yep, it needs new tracks, lol, you want to introduce real drifting to re-volt?! would be nice tho, you may see that StadiumCar in TM is pretty much a true racing car and it does drift!
some of the other cars are funny and interesting too: Sport car is a drifty car, could be compared to some re-volt fast cars like ripperII or puma. snow car is the one with highest steer. and coast the hardest car and rally a tough car hehe, oh and desert one is pretty interesting because its about to flip on turns :P
Custom car performance and handling can be manually altered (tweak the params) to suit any version of RV's game physics and your personal preferences.

So I assume the issue is trying to match original game physics to new RV's interpretation.
Yep, and that's leading to think about realism which is something that Re-Volt is not and was never intended to be as such. Look mario kart, it is accurate? no. and will never be
Yes, I'm the ABC block and you can find me in Toy World 1 track! ;)
Reborn as Juest Zungo :P PS: I prefer chatting and i have Steam, Skype, Google and Microsoft account, just ask for it via PM or rarely find me in RVHouse. Also check out my interests.
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revolting
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23 Feb 2015, 03:13 #6

Yet, from the top of my head my father used to play Re-volt and he would always say: this is a very realistic game! :), so I guess the sacrifices we need to make for this expediency are really worth the effort :)
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Manmountain
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23 Feb 2015, 03:19 #7

revolting @ 23 Feb 2015, 04:13 AM wrote: Yet, from the top of my head my father used to play Re-volt and he would always say: this is a very realistic game! :), so I guess the sacrifices we need to make for this expediency are really worth the effort :)
Yes, but you have to define your term of realistic, as in, the handling is realistic for RC cars but not for real life cars, but tweaking the params can create a simile of real life handling. But that is not what the original game was aiming for.
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Kenny
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23 Feb 2015, 13:25 #8

jigebren @ 22 Feb 2015, 11:02 PM wrote: To make it short, I'm afraid this is almost impossible to fix without modifying the gameplay in a too noticeable way (unless we were able to compensate for the modification but that doesn't sound realistic to me), so there's almost no hope to have it fixed ever.
I see, well thats too bad then.
jigebren wrote:I always had in mind to add a new game mode to Re-Volt, an Obstacle Course mode where you would not have to go as fast as possible but where the goal would be to avoid falling out of the track as much as possible, with several checkpoints in the track, each time you fall this is counted and you start back to the last checkpoint (this is something you can find in Trackmania if I can remember).
Yeah, I suggested something like that some time ago as well though my source of inspiration for the mode was mainly Counter Strike with its parcour maps :P
jigebren wrote:But as this mode requires specific new tracks to be created first anyhow, it will probably never be added...
You mean it will never be added because these specific tracks would require a modification of the current format or because it would be too much effort to create these tracks?
If its the former then why do you think that its not a good idea to modify/update the format? I mean you could just add a header info to the updated format and if thats not found by the game then it assumes the original format.

As for the necessary modifications to create this specific new game mode, I think it would suffice to just add a new type of pos node that marks the end of a track (so you don't have to reconnect it with the start node) and it automatically assumes one round for the track?
This alone would be enough for a new mode (one way track or "Sprint" like its called in some NFS games which has actually proven to be theoratically possible with the current game).
For the obstacle/parcour mode you could additionally use the split time triggers as checkpoints and make the game use them as respawn points instead of the current pos node.
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jigebren
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23 Feb 2015, 14:22 #9

Kenny wrote:I see, well thats too bad then.
But I could still make you a modified build if you're interested to try.
Kenny wrote:You mean it will never be added because these specific tracks would require a modification of the current format or because it would be too much effort to create these tracks?
I meant the second answer, at least in a first time...
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Kenny
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23 Feb 2015, 16:26 #10

jigebren @ 23 Feb 2015, 03:22 PM wrote:
I see, well thats too bad then.
But I could still make you a modified build if you're interested to try.
It would be interesting to at least see the effect of such changes, if its not too much work for you to put a custom build together then that would even better ;)
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Abc
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23 Feb 2015, 17:03 #11

Kenny @ 23 Feb 2015, 01:26 PM wrote:
jigebren @ 23 Feb 2015, 03:22 PM wrote:
I see, well thats too bad then.
But I could still make you a modified build if you're interested to try.
It would be interesting to at least see the effect of such changes, if its not too much work for you to put a custom build together then that would even better ;)
Yeah, i dont see why so much hassle making test builds with settings for everything (pretty much a "pure dev" build for testers and maybe spawn a new branch called test (or something like that :P ) )
Yes, I'm the ABC block and you can find me in Toy World 1 track! ;)
Reborn as Juest Zungo :P PS: I prefer chatting and i have Steam, Skype, Google and Microsoft account, just ask for it via PM or rarely find me in RVHouse. Also check out my interests.
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Citywalker
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23 Feb 2015, 17:43 #12

One thing that the slope-sliding is good for (and maybe intended for) is to try alleviating bad AI coding. If an AI car stops (bumps a wall etc.) at a spot between two track zones, it may get into a loop of not deciding which track zone to follow (alternating its selection very fast between the two and never getting enough throttle to either direction to move anywhere), until it slides (sometimes very slowly) near enough to one of them so it can definitely select that one and finally get some persistent throttle up to move. I’ve seen it too many times in old RV...
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jigebren
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24 Feb 2015, 00:44 #13

Kenny @ 23 Feb 2015, 05:26 PM wrote:
jigebren @ 23 Feb 2015, 03:22 PM wrote:But I could still make you a modified build if you're interested to try.
It would be interesting to at least see the effect of such changes, if its not too much work for you to put a custom build together then that would even better ;)
Just forgot that it was actually possible already... Race in DEV mode, and keep the F9 key pressed (it's not a toggle key, keep the key pressed for the modified physics, release for the original one). I know it's not convenient, but it has not been designed to be. :P
Try it eg. in NHood1 in the ditch before the starting line, or on the corrugated steel plate in Market1 (ie. the second one :rolleyes:). It's doesn't definitively remove sliding, but it's already way better. It does make the car less easy to oversteer though.
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Kenny
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28 Feb 2015, 10:21 #14

I see, well after trying it out with a few cars there is definitely a difference in how the car controls and how easy it is to loose control (more than I expected actually).

And I prefer the original handling over this one, just because the cars that I tested were a lot more prone to spin out in turns and it was overall more difficult to control them.

With that being said, I wouldn't mind having this implemented as an option for the common user to use. Actually I think it would justify a new/higher difficulty setting even more, together with the more realistic wheel collision handling.
Or like I suggested previously, a new difficulty setting called "custom" where the user could configure stuff like this for himself (plus some settings from the other difficulties and AI stuff).

It really is unfortunate that the sliding issue can't be resolved without having an impact on the overall handling but I guess we just have to accept that fact.
Though I would be interested to know if this issue is only affecting the car when it slows down / is completely still or if its present at all times?
For example when you're racing down a long road and along the way the car would slowly slide to one side of the road, forcing the player to constantly correct this behaviour himself, have you made any tests regarding this?
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jigebren
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28 Feb 2015, 15:25 #15

@Kenny
I'll have to split the topic as it may sound as if your comment was about moving wheel collision on steering (the topic) while it was about the F9 hack actually...

Yes, this hack does make the car more prone to spin out because the car has a better grip even on high speed. That's why there's no way yet to use it "as is" IMO.
Kenny wrote:when you're racing down a long road and along the way the car would slowly slide to one side of the road, forcing the player to constantly correct this behaviour himself
I have not made tests but it's very likely to be the case. The tangent impulse ( // to the ground/wheel contact & perpendicular to the wheel direction) is just too low... I've read somewhere that with the first physics model the original devs has developed, the cars were very easy to spin out, so they could have hack it is such a way with no other reason than making it easier to play (it's just a guess though).
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